Audio description [AD]: Program intro 7 TV Rota, directed by Paco Campaña.

(Music)

PACO CAMPAÑA - P.C.:— ‘Quererla es crearla’ is part of an entity that is launched to fight for a world of equals. If life is very complicated for everyone, imagine when we talk, for example, about situations of disability, functional diversity, and the educational collective or environment. We are going to talk about all of this in the coming minutes. Surely, there will be families watching us now for whom this doesn't apply, but we never know what situation we might find ourselves in. In any case, it has to be an issue to consider together, because creating a world of equals is everyone's business. We all have to contribute our bit.

Mercedes Bernal, representante de la plataforma ‘Quererla es Crearla’, bienvenida de nuevo.

MERCEDES BERNAL - M.B.:— Muchísimas gracias por la oportunidad de concienciar un poquito. 

P.C.:— Es importantísimo que hablemos de la vida porque es complicada. Mañana hablaremos de la vivienda, imagínate. La vida está muy complicada, pero hay situaciones que son más complicadas todavía. Si para alguien que no ha tenido una cuestión, es difícil, imagínese cuando hablamos de situaciones en las que partimos de cierta vulnerabilidad por cuestiones físicas, psíquicas o por cualquier otro motivo. Vale la pena que arrimemos el hombro.

M.B.:— Exactamente. La plataforma ‘Quererla es crearla’ viene a impulsar un movimiento social para dar respuesta a ese gran reto o desafío que tenemos hoy en día la sociedad como humanidad: la educación inclusiva. Formamos parte del movimiento familias, estudiantes y profesionales que tienen un objetivo común: que la escuela no deje fuera a nadie por ningún tipo de característica de género o capacidad. Que a todos se les permita acceder al aprendizaje y, sobre todo, a la convivencia y a una participación real.

P.C.:—The name ‘Quererla es Crearla’, what is it?

M.B.:—The word is very significant because we must have the conviction that we need to transform it, and to transform it we need to want. Hence, wanting is creating. If we want it, we will create it.

P.C.:—If we want it, we can.

M.B.:—That's it.

P.C.:—In summary, it is an entity that has been recently created. Is it local or does it have a regional scope?

M.B.:—It is national, but people from Latin America and other parts of the world are joining. It is a global movement. Many people make it up.

P.C.:—In Rota, it is still taking its first steps.

M.B.:—Yes. In Rota, we had the opportunity to make a documentary, the documentary screening. I'll tell you a bit about the beginning. The platform originated from a meeting that took place in Málaga in 2018, during a workshop. This workshop was based on a research project carried out by the University of Málaga. Families, students, and professionals from all over Spain gathered there. The objective was to analyze the situation of schools today and make a diagnosis. From there, a machinery was set in motion, and support networks were created. In 2020, online meetings continued to be held because of the pandemic. In 2022, another workshop was held in Madrid. We met again there, and working groups were formed. There is a group of guidance counselors who created a very interesting and necessary guide, presenting an alternative approach to guidance work in schools.

It is the first point of departure for segregation. There are others from families on how to dissent and seek support from the rest of society. And there is another guide, I believe the most relevant one, which students have created for other students. It's curious because, normally, when we think about the teaching-learning process, it's not always stated how a center should be where children are the protagonists. Decisions are always made in their name, and especially in the name of these boys and girls with more vulnerable situations, historically always silenced. Now, for the first time, they are taking the voice, because they are attending conferences, they are present at congresses, forums, and wherever education is discussed. Obviously, we must count on the protagonists, who are the students themselves, and who better than them to bear witness to their experiences, to how they have lived the situation in school, to the harm that school has done to them. They have tools for us to learn what we need to modify. That's why they are the protagonists of the documentary that was presented here, in Rota. We didn't have a screening, but the premiere was in Madrid in 2022.

It premiered there along with the Minister of Education, Pilar Alegría. The documentary arises from the story of Rubén Calleja Rubén, a child with Down syndrome who was expelled from mainstream school. It recounts the titanic struggle of Alejandro and his entire family to fight and prove in court that his son's right to inclusive education was being violated. It also tells the stories of other students and their families. The documentary is very interesting. Here, in Rota, it was organized by the city council. The important thing about this documentary is that it is not just a viewing of testimonies, which is good because it makes us question situations and preconceptions that we don't realize and support, by segregating.

But it also helps us to reflect jointly on what we can do to transform the current reality of schools.

P.C.:—What are the barriers faced by a child with a disability? What are the problems, and what can we do to make that inclusion more real? You mentioned that this has gone to court. The law must have limits within which it is within that framework. What are the main problems encountered?

M.B.:—It's interesting that we talk a little about that legal framework, as you say, because the problem is that the law is not made effective. If we talk about inclusive education, we must bear in mind that it is a fundamental right enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of the Child of 1989. Many times, it seems we talk about inclusion as if it were a fad; it's used for everything. It's true that the use of the word 'inclusion' has been somewhat distorted; its content has been emptied.

That's why it's interesting to see that it has been a concern worldwide and globally for many years. One of the most relevant action frameworks was the Salamanca Statement, I'm talking about 1994. It already spoke of inclusion. Hundreds of countries and international organizations took a stand to examine what schools really need. What change do they need to be for everyone, without any exception? Other international organizations focused on specific groups. In this case, for example, we have the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. It obliges all countries to comply with inclusive education. It obliges them to put in place all necessary adjustments and support to make it effective. Spain ratified it in 2008. This is very important because, in human rights matters, the Constitution itself states that everything ratified in Spain becomes directly part of our legal system. Therefore, we are talking about inclusion not being optional or subject to debate or opinion. It is mandatory.

P.C.:—Mercedes, you mentioned Down syndrome earlier, for example. Does a child with Down syndrome have to go to a special school or a mainstream school with children who do not have Down syndrome? What does that legal framework say?

M.B.:—The legal framework clearly states that everyone, without exception, must be together. The State must provide all the resources and circumstances to make this possible. We must start from a very important idea: we are all equal in rights, but also in dignity and in allowing each person to be themselves. This is one of the things that is not being developed in schools, where discrimination and segregation occur based on different characteristics, as you say. Obviously, this is because there is a medical model in schools, when school should be a space for learning and coexistence. We have the vision of focusing on the child, the therapeutic approach with the aim of repairing them. It is thought that learning difficulties will be alleviated by labeling the child with special educational needs.

P.C.:—In fact, there are special schools sponsored by the Administration and the Regional Government of Andalusia with all their approval. I know some. Is that by choice or by obligation?

M.B.:—There has been a lot of debate and deception around that idea. It has been thought that families must have the choice. Of course, if you offer me a choice between a center with no resources and where my child will not receive the support they need to access learning, then obviously I will choose the option that ensures they will be cared for. But the child's rights are not being respected. The family's free choice cannot override the child's right to be, participate, and benefit from everyone. It cannot override their right to coexistence.

P.C.:—I have no doubt. Put yourself in the following situation: there is a young child with Down syndrome who goes to a class where the teacher has to be prepared in a somewhat special way, I understand, to be able to attend to the child with a special need. Then I will also ask you about the classmates, who surely, as children, will take it with more normality, if that's possible. There will be more responsibility on the teacher with their work of learning and personal enrichment. After all, we are talking about educating. But I put myself in the teacher's shoes, who has to educate 23 children without Down syndrome and this child who, as you rightly say, deserves an inclusive space. For the teacher, it won't be easy, will it?

M.B.:—Of course, it's not easy. It's not about 'come on, we put resources in and that's it.' Inclusion is not automatic; it's not enough to put measures or resources in place. We also need a transformation, of our perspective, of our prejudices, and of what we have always understood about relating to persons with disabilities. Of course, training is necessary, but also willingness and that sense of humanity, as I said before, to respect their dignity. It's not about trying to make everyone fit into the same path, because that way they are not being given equal opportunities to all children.

P.C.:—At what point are we now? We've gone from those 'sick' children being hidden away at home to a very different scenario, you know it better than I do. Have we achieved a much closer and more inclusive world where we don't look strangely at a child? Are we gradually becoming more humane in this blessed society? At what point do you think, you who live it on the ground, that we are?

M.B.:—As I say, the laws are the problem. That's what we always encounter. Regarding those social barriers, as you said, there is a lack of training. Unfortunately, we still see headlines in the news about the 'typical' mother who needs resources and has to beg every year. We have to take into account, as the researcher and pedagogue Francesco Tonucci says, that when we think of an inclusive school, it seems we are thinking of a generous school, in the sense that it will depend on the goodwill and favors granted to a child. And nothing could be further from the truth. As we have made clear, relying on a legal framework, we are talking about rights. And the child's right is to be there. But it's not as you say: 'progress has been made because the law is there and children are participating.' Right now, what is happening is integration, which is not the same as inclusion. They cannot be confused.

What we need is not for the child to simply be there or participate in some group activities. It's about the child truly feeling involved and engaged, being part of what happens in the classroom, in daily life, being taken into account. And for this, the only way is to reinforce the child's own identity. That the person is valued, the resources, and how we do it. It's something we have to consider ourselves, as I said before. The medical model focuses on the child, considering that they need to be repaired. All specific programs and resources are applied to the child individually, when things go wrong because, evidently, we insist on adapting the child. We insist that they have to enter through the same path as everyone else. And that's when it 'fails'.

There are limitations. Really, we are not focusing on the environment, the context, the barriers, the methodology strategy, or the resources. Many times we talk about "lack of resources," but perhaps we are using resources incorrectly and they are not efficient. We cannot always hide behind the excuse that there is no inclusion due to a lack of resources, because, as I said before, inclusion is a global transformative process. It is not only based on resources, but on many things we can act upon. We can generate that transformation.

P.C.:—Having active participation.

M.B.:—That's right.

P.C.:—And in Rota, how are we doing? Because in Rota there are four or six schools and there will be a number of students who need that demand because they have a special situation. How are we doing in Rota, are we responding or not?

P.C.:— Yo creo que en toda España hay centros escolares donde hay sufrimiento. En el momento en que un niño sufre en un aula, ya lo estamos haciendo mal. Es algo que creo que nos debería preocupar porque, volvemos a insistir, no hay muchos profesionales implicados que quieran el cambio y transformar. Pero, muchas veces, también se ven atados por la propia Administración, que manda mensajes contradictorios. Por un lado, la inclusión como un principio, cuando realmente no es un principio, sino un derecho que hay que cumplir. Sobre todo, necesitamos más apoyo y conciencia de que, como dijiste tú al principio, no se trata de la lucha de un colectivo específico, es algo que nos tiene que preocupar como sociedad. La situación de discapacidad puede llegar a tu puerta en cualquier momento o no, pero tenemos que luchar para que ciertas estén cubiertas. 

Necesitamos cambiar la mirada de la sociedad. No percibir a las personas de una manera, equiparando las diferencias a la inferioridad. Algo que ocurre por desgracia. Pensando así, las respuestas que se le dan siempre serán segregadoras y discriminatorias. No es lo que pretendemos. Estamos luchando por la escuela inclusiva. Si conseguimos que ese espacio sea inclusivo, garantizaremos que, en todos los ámbitos, la sociedad tenga un espacio de inclusión y participación real de todos. Sin que haya grupos de personas obligados a hacer cosas aparte que podemos hacer todos juntos. Todos nos podemos enriquecer juntos.

En fin. Hay mucho trabajo. Sobre todo, de conciencia, porque hemos heredado la barrera social de una cultura capacitista. De igual forma que luchamos todos juntos para erradicar el machismo, mujeres y hombres de la mano, porque durante tantos años se ha discriminado a las mujeres, pasa igual con el capacitismo. El proceso de inclusión lleva muchos años. Tú has preguntado: «¿Cómo va Rota?» Pues muy lento, la vida de muchos niños se queda en el camino. Muchas familias tienen que verse en los juzgados y perdiendo un montón de tiempo, como le pasó a Alejandro Calleja. Es verdad que, al final, la ONU y la Justicia española le han dado la razón, pero hay desgaste económico, emocional y, sobre todo, como dice Alejandro, de tiempo. «Todo el tiempo que ha perdido mi hijo, ¿quién se lo recupera?» Esa es la cruda realidad. 

P.C.:— ¿Cuántas personas en Rota forman parte de ‘Quererla es crearla'? ¿Cuántas personas tiene ya voluntarias?

M.B.:— Ahora mismo estoy yo de miembro activo, aunque hay personas que, evidentemente, van con esa filosofía y apoyan. Estamos en ello.

P.C.:—To make visible and do what is possible. It is the intention and, as we said before, not just because it might affect us one day. For example, we don't talk about cancer only because it affects us or has affected our family, but because as a society we should be like that. 

Mercedes, thank you very much. Good luck. You have a window here to explain yourselves when you deem it convenient. 

M.B.:—One more thing. Next week we have a two-day workshop in Barcelona. It will be very intense. It won't just be a conference where specialists give guidelines, talk about education or inclusion. It will be collaborative work where teams will be created to work and take what is generated back to our regions and places to start raising awareness and making things visible. Let's get our act together, we need to act and bring about change. 

P.C.:—Perfect, if you like, let's have a video call next week. We'll note it down in our calendars and you can tell us about it. Thank you very much and good luck. 

M.B.:—Thank you very much.