Collaborating to promote the inclusive school

Audio description [AD]: The participants from the three workshops gather and sit in a circle to begin the assembly, forming a single group.

Ignacio Calderón:— We are going to have a short assembly. Come on, keep coming in. There are more chairs over here if anyone wants to come in. Well, let's finish taking our seats.

(Murmurs)

Ignacio Calderón:— Okay, the next session is short, only half an hour to share what we've done in the different workshops. In each of the workshops, someone was designated to be the spokesperson for that workshop. And well, now is the time for those spokespeople to come, tell us what happened in each of those workshops, and let's discuss it a bit to continue working. Workshop 1, come on.

Participant 1:— Our diagnostic question was whether schools were spaces for participation and learning. And there were three groups of responses: the emphatic "no"s, because my experience tells me that's not the case or the school isn't designed to be a space for participation; then there were the conditional "yes"s and the aspirational "yes"s. The conditional "yes"s were "it can be when a series of circumstances occur" or "it can be because, although it's not my general experience, I have had some moments where I experienced school like this or I have known schools that truly are." And the aspirational "yes"s, "it has to be; it isn't, but it has to be." That would be more or less the diagnosis. I think there was more agreement on the "no," but we don't want to dwell on the "no." Then, in the second part, the more proactive one, we ran very short on time and couldn't contribute all we would have liked. So, from what we've gathered, there was a part more focused on the need for a change of perspective, which has already been discussed here. On the need to recognize the richness of diversity, a part more on the necessary cultural transformation, and also structural and political transformation.

Someone commented that, fortunately, in their regulatory framework, at least in the Valencian Community, there were certain legal texts to minimally hold onto to do certain things. And well, that idea of "we need a regulatory framework that doesn't let people off the hook for doing this." Also, proposals related to teachers. Regarding teachers, on the one hand, always with the need for initial and ongoing training, with a transformation of that training.

A very interesting intervention that spoke about the richness of us, experts through our experience as trainers of trainers, that need to have space in training settings for our experience to be valuable. And another that also relates to teachers, the need for teachers to be diverse, that it's impossible to build a school open to diversity when the power structure is entirely homogeneous, when there's no longer even a possibility of recognizing diverse students in the teaching staff. And then, we've grouped a final set of more concrete proposals, more about strategies and practices, which in many cases have to do with UDL, with the implementation of techniques specifically for welcoming diversity and providing and building learning that isn't just curricular learning, but co-learning. Learning understood in a broader sense, through small practices. More or less.

(Applause)

Participant 2:Raúl and I. Do you want to start, Raúl?

Raúl Aguirre:You.

Participante 2:— Vale. En el segundo taller, se nos planteó la pregunta de si valoramos todas las diferencias por igual o si solo las que nos afectan directamente. Estábamos bastante de acuerdo en que no valoramos todas las diferencias por igual. Valoramos las que sufrimos y las que conocemos. Y que las diferencias están bastante jerarquizadas, se les da más importancia a unas que a otras. Se hablaba de la rentabilidad de las diferencias. Se nos pidió proponer estrategias para cambiar esto. Han salido muchas. La primera pasa por visibilizar y conocer todas las diferencias y sentirlas como propias, porque todos podemos tener. Todos y todas, en algún momento, podemos formar parte de cualquier colectivo diferente al que se le excluye por ser diferente. La información para empatizar: hablamos mucho de la empatía, de la importancia de la empatía para echar el miedo fuera. Más estrategias. Ah, hay que estar para visibilizar, hay que estar en los sitios. Hablaba aquí una mamá de las AMPA, de los consejos escolares, de las asociaciones, de la política. Para visibilizar, hay que estar, y para dar a conocer, hay que estar.

También se habló de la necesidad de la convivencia y de la creación de espacios comunes en los que poner de manifiesto todas estas diferencias. Todo lo que podemos aportar y hacer desde nuestra posición, posición que siempre va a ser de privilegio, como apuntaba Leo. Nos ha gustado mucho esa parte. Más estrategias. Escuchar; la importancia de escuchar más y hablar menos. La importancia de dar un paso atrás, ver cuál es nuestra posición y, a partir de ahí, entender que estamos en una posición de poder y que tenemos que utilizar nuestro poder para empezar a transformar más. A cambiar el foco, modificar la escala de valores, entendiendo el contexto neoliberal y capitalista en el que nos estamos moviendo hoy en día. Deconstruirnos, aliarnos, sentir las diferencias, todas las diferencias como ‘lo nuestro’. Unir el activismo a la legislación, porque sin legislación no vamos a conseguir nada. La importancia del lenguaje y de trabajar desde la primera infancia. Necesitamos medios y hay que facilitar esos medios desde cualquier entidad, cualquier administración, para poder acceder la accesibilidad y establecer vínculos, crear redes como las que estamos creando hoy aquí, por ejemplo.

No sé si me he olvidado de algo. Seguramente sí. ¿Tú qué crees, Raúl?

Raúl Aguirre:— Creo que no.

(Risas)

Participante 2:— And that's it.

(Applause)

Nacho Calderón:—Before César speaks, I wanted to mention that, again, it's important that we are on social media. It's important that, during the workshops and the assembly, we are tweeting things so that it's not just those of us who are here, but that we involve other people. Come on, César, if you want, sit here.

Participant 3:—Political advocacy. Two questions have been posed to us, one of which was: are there changes? And the other, how to mobilize? Four blocks emerged from the first question: one, in which 'nothing changes'; another, in which 'there are changes'; another, which is a bridge, 'those things that are being done, but which will be seen in the near future'. The second question is: how does immobility occur? Within all these four blocks, we start from the basis that ideas have emerged. We start from the basis that politicians kept changing seats, the people in charge; that there is immobility and that laws are not respected, or that laws are being created that are slow and do not respect those rights and the movement. Then, there was the part about people who did see those small changes and told us about things that had happened years ago, which were like small breaches and which had to serve as launchpads to change everything.

And then, later, in the bridge, there are all these things that are happening now, like 'Quererla es crearla', which are doing all this work and believe in the students. The students have made us participants in the fact that these small changes will occur and will be seen in the future. And then, how does immobility occur? By doing nothing about it. I don't know if I missed anything. If you want, Alejandro and the people who were here, give me a hand. You can all participate.

Then, on the second question, how to mobilize?, the three blocks I told you about have emerged. Those people who don't know how to do it or who have already tried and don't know how to continue. Those who say that we must continue to do so by seeing through social networks, through the collaboration of all civil society, through federations and confederations, through entities, that is, working as a social movement where we involve everyone. And then, talking about how to generate these resistances, how to break these resistances, how we do it. Then they said to make reasonable adjustments, that there should be participation processes. We cannot think that we alone are the solution, but that all of civil society must be involved.

Let's go, in short, that if politicians, in my opinion, do nothing, let's make them do something. That's it, if I'm missing anything, thank you.

Ignacio Calderón:—Well, quick round before returning to the workshops. Anyone want to comment? We're going to continue working on how to make it happen. So, there's a round now.

Participant 3—(Addressing the group) Look, we all need to participate, please. We're saying we need to create a civil and social movement, please participate.

Participant 4:—Hello. Well, we're from Menorca, from the Balearic Islands, and we want to launch a proposal for next year to continue with these work meetings. We are people who are here, from Mallorca, Menorca, Ibiza, and our proposal is to hold these meetings once a year on each island. Next year, 2023, in October. You are all invited to come to the first one, but the proposal, the other part of the proposal, is that this be repeated in each community. I think it's super necessary because, in a way, we are all working in each community more individually, perhaps, and all of this needs to be transferred and shared. So, we will go to all the communities where you want to do something.

Ignacio Calderón:—More ideas.

Participant 5:—I wanted to say that we have to think about ideas for interventions, for doing things. I think one thing we should be clear about is what we call each thing, that is, to be clear about the names we give them. I study pedagogy and this year, in a subject, they used an expression that I really like: 'pedagogical garrulity.' An expression they use to describe aligning yourself with ideas and calling concepts by different names. For example, we engage in pedagogical garrulity when we call integration inclusion. So, to move forward, let's stop engaging in pedagogical garrulity. Let's be clear about the concepts, and then we can move forward better.

Ignacio Calderón:—Come on, more words.

Participant 6:—Hello. I, being quite technocratic when it comes to organizing, was thinking about... I'm not saying this based on my experience in accessibility and so on, I think it's important. I'm from the 'next action' plan, setting short, medium, and long-term goals. Saying, 'Well, here, those of us who are here today, both personally and as entities and so on, can commit to this, and we can meet periodically to also follow up.' Saying, 'Well, where are we?' Because otherwise, it will be like Groundhog Day, you know? We'll be going through the same thing a year from now. So, I think it would be great if today, from these meetings, very concrete proposals could emerge, and say, well, what things are state or regional competencies or I don't know what. And how do we channel them. Very directly, but keeping in mind these actions, both personal and collective, because otherwise it's hard to ground it and build a network, right? Also, who can we ally with. It came up earlier, what's our situation with professional associations? And with other forms of education in general?

Ignacio Calderón:— Thank you.

Participant 7, (Jesús Calleja):— Well, taking advantage, effectively, of next year, I think it's very important because it's an election year for regional, municipal, and national elections. In political advocacy, each of us in our own territory, we could certainly bother them, be a bit of a thorn in their side. And to the politician in charge and the administration in charge, well, stir things up, unsettle them a little, say things clearly, call things by their name. What is a crime is a crime, unless they prove otherwise. What is not being done well is not being done well, what is being done well, is being done well, that's fine too. But well, next year I think we have room to start organizing something, to stir things up a bit. In the end, what bothers politicians and administrations is the light, that things are brought to light, that crimes are seen and reported. That bothers them a lot and politicians handle it very poorly.

(Applause)

Ignacio Calderón:— I'd say a few things about what's been commented on now… Antón? Go ahead.

Participant 8 (Antón Fontao):— I don't know how it will be, but I think tomorrow's demonstration should be held every year.

(Applause)

Ignacio Calderón:—Well, two ideas emerge from this: one related to how the work is articulated geographically, and another regarding its frequency. Now, Antón was talking about concentration, or rather, about a demonstration that isn't just a one-off event but is periodic. Similarly, earlier, the workshop in the islands was mentioned. The idea is that the work we do should be articulated in each of the territories. We have people here from Extremadura, Andalusia, Galicia, from many places, and each of us will go back to our own territory, and there, something needs to be set up. We need to think throughout the afternoon about how to set up that 'something,' so that a driving group is generated in each territory. The driving group isn't the main group; the driving group is the one that mobilizes. It's the group that, in a way, stimulates other people, works with the rest of the people, and doesn't become the main focus in that territory. Do I make myself clear?

In the same way that in everything we've seen here so far, there was no single protagonist, or rather, there were many protagonists. The question is how we should work in the territory. For example, how participatory meetings can be held in each territory. It would be great if something like the workshop that can be done there could also be done in Extremadura. So, who could push that forward? Well, the driving group that is formed when we return to each of our territories would start doing it. One idea.

Another idea is, how can we ensure that these territorial efforts aren't isolated and that this doesn't turn into separation or division again? How could we do it? There will need to be a network that integrates all the territories, a national one, which will also have to have its own logic. We've seen that there are tools we've been creating over the last few years. We'll have to use those tools, or surely, other tools will emerge, but they must be tools that strategically lead us to some solutions. Come on.

Participant 9 (Paula Verde):—'Quererla es crearla,' subdivision 'I don't know what,' or 'Quererlas es crearla' and the community's lyrics. No, no, I'm joking. I was, as always, making a joke about everything. Look, regarding what Nacho said, let's not forget what Floren told us about the documentary. As far as possible, [intentemos buscar huecos para proyectar y generar debate]. I have great support from Foanpas, which is represented here by many people who come from Vigo. Chus is one of the educators, and they always find us opportunities to screen it and generate debate. Opening it up to other people, to other people who couldn't travel here. As an idea, the documentary is an excellent tool to initiate many things. So, the documentary is available and needs to be screened to start that change and generate, I mean, we start from that first idea that Floren left in the documentary.

Ignacio Calderón:—Sure, the interesting thing is that it's not being made public for strategic reasons. Perhaps we'll present it at festivals, as it can be a way to promote the documentary itself, and if it's already public, it might not be eligible for festivals. So, what you can do, and it's on the website, is request that screenings be organized in different territories. Do you want to have a screening at your school? Well, look, I've prepared for the screening to take place on such-and-such a day, in the school's auditorium, or whatever. You request it, we'll send you the link, and you'll have the documentary without any problems, but it won't be publicly available. And we should think about this, because the documentary is a great tool related to the work you've been doing in that room on cultural transformation. Not just the documentary, but also generating a debate afterwards based on the documentary. What do people think, what resonated most with them, where are we stuck?

Well, any more ideas. Last idea.

Participant 10:— Hello. I wanted to comment that it would also be important to think about the students of today who are suffering, to provide many tools so that it's not just a long-term utopia, but that families benefit from it starting today. What they are going through is happening now, and exclusion is still very present.

Ignacio Calderón:— What you're suggesting is that we also think about the present. Very well. Well, if you agree, we'll end the assembly here and then we'll get back to the workshops. It makes sense for those who started working this morning to continue. If someone says, 'No, I can contribute more elsewhere,' well, that's fine, you can switch, but if you can continue in that workshop, then continue, because you've already been following the debates.

Well, may it be productive. We're focusing on transformation, on what do we do? Okay?

Audio description [AD]: People head to the classrooms assigned for each workshop. On screen, the group of families is seated in circles, with post-its and pens to take notes during the dialogue.

Amalia Alonso:—Let's see, can you hear me? Yes, you can hear me. I don't know about your group, but we had a hard time stopping talking because we came up with some spectacular lines of action. So, do you think we should share them and then decide?

Participant 1:—I wrote very quickly because I feel very small here. As someone said, I commit to supporting, to making visible the families that come to me. And as a mother, I commit to something that I also think is important: educating in diversity. I believe that's where we need to start, from the bottom up. And since they are very simple, I haven't added anything else.

Jesús Moreno:—The commitments are perfect, we will accept them at the end. Now, we can go beyond commitment.

Participant 2:—Following my colleague, listening to the students and families from our federation, from both. So, that's what we would commit to. And something further would be to center the learning process on the students, that they be the center of all of it, that the students be the center of learning and not the content, but the students. And from there, generate knowledge, participation, learning, everything we want. But always from the students. What I would do is always listen to the student about their needs, and from there. Generate knowledge. What does that student need from that school? And, from there, we generate the content, procedures, whatever we want, but from listening to the student. From the concrete, then we can go further. We are family counselors, we are educators, and we advise AMPAs, families who come to our federation with different issues. It is for those who are teachers or counselors in a school.

(Laughter)

Participant 3:Look, I am in a school, and when you proposed the question, I was telling them what I thought: what can I do this coming Monday, or what could we do? And, then, I realized I hadn't had the chance to properly look at all the material on the 'Quererla es crearla' page. And it's perfect for me to do a training course or propose a training course to my faculty with all that material, because I see that there is very interesting material there that can be used and, in the end, raise awareness. I think it can raise awareness a lot, because in my school, that's what happens to me. I mean, I have resources, we were talking about it, we have everything, and yet, it's still very difficult. The resource is there, we have it, we have everything we need, but still, it's difficult.

And, then, our colleague added that it's not just for the faculty, but for families too. To reach, in some way, to raise awareness with families about all this, because you also find families who don't understand it. And so, that's the proposal I've had.

Participant 4:Yes, with your permission, I'll clarify it a bit. Well, I joined an AMPA at a special education center, precisely because of the deficiencies I saw when I moved from Granada to Melilla. I found that we were coming from a special education center that, at least, had a good service, good attention to the children, to a center where practically nothing was done, it was a parking lot for children. Of course, I found that lamentable. I got involved in the AMPA, from the AMPA, I got involved in the Federation, from the Federation, I got involved in CEAPA.

I am now a national director of CEAPA and general coordinator of inclusion and special needs. I volunteered because I see the deficiency. As I've progressed, well, imagine. I know tremendous and terrible cases that I prefer not to explain here, they are too sad, it's very hard. One of the main problems I have, and that I experience not only in Melilla, but everywhere, is that the parents of neurotypical children don't really understand the situation, they are not aware of how important inclusion is and how good it is for their children to grow up in an environment where people with different abilities are treated equally. It's very important.

So, the proposal I make, very concretely, is that each of us, through the tutoring or the direction of our center, arrange a meeting with the other parents, because the children in your school or the parents themselves cannot say that their children are doing poorly because of that child or that family. I have encountered and experienced complaints, lawsuits against families to have children with special needs removed from the center to a special education center, when I believe we all agree that, when that happens, the child ceases to have any academic opportunity. They will be well treated, they will be well cared for, but what education is about is educating them and trying to give them some kind of academic possibility, and that is what we fight for.

So, I consider it important that we address tutors, principals, and arrange a meeting with the parents in our child's grade to make them understand the situation and that it will be the complete opposite. It will be very positive for them, for us, for our children. And we will not find ourselves in unpleasant situations where, precisely, the people who should help us do not help us, not because they are bad people, but because they do not understand what is happening and they consider or come to believe that something terrible is really happening, which is that their children are doing poorly because there is a "retarded" child in their class. You know they call them that. I don't know if I've managed to explain myself. I think it's very important that we do that. Okay.

Participant 5:—I'll take the floor now because, regarding what he just said, at my son's previous school, I did that. I met with the families of my son's entire class from the age of three, because he spent all three years of preschool with the same group. I met with them mainly because one day at the park my son Sergio was going to go down the slide, and of course, he was still wearing a diaper, and then, of course, a little girl told me: "My mom says that Sergio is a baby because he still wears a diaper and doesn't know how to talk." So, of course, I thought: "If that girl says that and it's been said at home, it's probably been said in other homes too." So, I wanted, as he says, to educate the families a bit about how they should respond to their children when they ask them: "Why doesn't Sergio talk? Why does Sergio wear a diaper or is in my class if he's a baby?" I did it with my son's preschool class, and at this school, with the pandemic, I haven't had the opportunity to do it, but my idea is that on March 21st, International Down Syndrome Day, we do something at the school, not just at the classroom level, but for the entire center, to also provide some training.

My idea is to make an explanatory video about what Down syndrome is. In my case, for example, I'm going to do it this way because my son has Down syndrome, but also to make families aware of the particularities a child with needs might have and that this doesn't mean their children will fall behind more than they would have if that child weren't in the class or school, in general. So, I'll take the opportunity, if you wish, to explain the course of action. I've gone a bit beyond the educational center. I've gone to the delegations; for example, in my delegation, which is Guadalajara, we see that every time a mother shows up, we're 'the crazy mom,' and they don't take us seriously because 'your child is an isolated case not included in the center, but they are the minority.' I don't think that's true. What I've thought of is to propose screening the documentary 'Quererla es crearla' not in an educational center, but at the Guadalajara delegation, which teachers, families, students, and teachers in training can attend. They can watch the screening, and from there, the delegation can commit to ensuring that the different centers carry out three actions.

First, not allowing students to be taken out of the classroom for support, thus ensuring their presence. I'm following the same line as before: presence, participation, and progress. So, there would be presence, but it would be genuinely monitored that the student isn't taken out, because, for example, it doesn't happen in my son's school, but I do know other schools in Guadalajara that do take them out for support. So, the delegation should take this into account and not allow students to leave the classroom. In fact, in Castilla-La Mancha, there's a royal decree with an article stating that all children's support will be provided within the classroom. The schools that are doing otherwise are ultimately breaking that law. So, the delegation must ensure that this law is complied with.

The second action I would propose to the delegation would be to bring training in collaborative learning, UDL, and inclusion to the various educational centers in the community of Guadalajara. Bringing it to the different centers, because if training is offered at the delegation or elsewhere, teachers may or may not attend. No, it should be done during school hours, and all teachers should be present. It wouldn't be an obligation to say, 'Go to the delegation, we're holding training,' because many teachers won't attend, but it wouldn't be an issue if the training is brought to the center. I believe that's where teachers will be and will receive the training, yes or yes. So, there would be participation, because we're talking about training in UDL and collaborative learning. Everyone could participate then.

And then, the third action I would propose to the delegation after this would be to convey to the orientation and inspection teams the idea that they need to monitor and ensure that students with special educational needs are also progressing in their learning. Often, exams and evaluations are given to the rest of the children, but the child with needs is excluded from those evaluations. They should have an evaluation that aligns with their curriculum, aligns with their learning level, but they should have an evaluation so they can see if that student is truly progressing. So, that's where progress would be. We need to monitor if it's truly understood. And how do you monitor or truly see it? By seeing if the student is progressing or not. If the student isn't progressing, then perhaps the participation we want to see isn't happening. So, that's all.

Thank you.

Jesús Moreno:— What I wanted to say is that I would like, I don't know what you two and the others think, for us to systematize it collectively. I mean, if we start to see links, commonalities, that we don't wait to hear everything, but rather "this has to do with what I said and this directly challenges me." What I want to say fits right in with what you just said, and let's weave that course of action, beyond us as university professionals doing the analysis as experts, which is bullshit, sorry, I didn't say bullshit, that we all do it together. I don't know what you think.

Participant 6 (Paula Verde):—From what I'm asking later, of the very positive things this morning, is that in this group I get the impression that everyone has spoken. It's very important that we manage to get everyone to say something in time, because in the end, if some voice isn't heard, we might miss something. So, I think this morning's session was very positive, and we're going to try.

Participant 7:—Look, we've tried to keep in mind what we can do, but not what we can do individually, but rather to try to make proposals that seem viable from the 'Quererla es crearla' space. From where we are, as external and not very legitimized agents, but who can promote things. So, many ideas have come up, really, so I'm going to get a little lost.

First, that people with diversity who are already in higher education or who are professionals, become the teachers who train groups, who go to educational centers and universities to train other education professionals. That the training be centered on people with diversity as protagonists, that it be that firsthand experience that trains others. Then, what other ideas have come up? Well, since many families, we've had no choice but to generate our own support materials, more with UDL guidance, more adapted to the needs we find at home, to try to make academic follow-up more or less viable. Since those materials already exist, organize them in a repository, both accessible to other families and accessible to professionals who tell us: "I don't know how to do it." Well, at least I can provide you with this material, which has already been generated for specific needs and is an effort we are wasting by doing it individually.

Then there's an idea that has to do with infiltrating teacher training networks. We need our entire experience and all our knowledge, which is very valuable, to be perceived as legitimate by the teaching staff. When we speak as families, they always treat us like crazy, hysterical people, "What are you going to know?" But in reality, we have accumulated a lot of tools and experiences, things that, perhaps, are not generally useful, but can be useful in specific cases. So, to get them to listen to us, let's say we look for that space in the Teacher Training Centers, so that schools and teachers don't receive it as the perspective of families, but rather receive it from a structure that is valid for them and, moreover, offers them rewards. And even if they are not directly interested in the topic, they get points. Put that knowledge, which is already in a place, so that it has some interest for them.

Along the same lines, we need a network of counselors who are in cahoots with families. It's about the same thing. When we say: 'Look, this works because I know it works because I'm doing it this way,' they don't listen to us. So, territorially, having guidance professionals who deliver our same message, so that it comes from a place they will listen to. It seems interesting to us to articulate this network of agents, also a bit infiltrated. A need that we don't know how can be met, but that we don't consider unfeasible either, is to have a legislative support tool for self-defense. That is, families constantly face situations where we know the law is on our side, and yet, we fail to make it effective due to a sheer lack of legal knowledge on how to claim it, where to claim it, or with what procedure to make it valid.

So, having people who know how it's done, and also, in their territory, which is not the same in Galicia as in Madrid, as the networks are not the same. To seek, I don't know how, a way to have legal advice so we can defend ourselves from the violence exerted against our children. And along the same lines, the idea of seeking alliances with juvenile prosecutor's offices emerged. That is, we have to accept that what is done to our children in many cases is mistreatment, and therefore, the prosecutor's office must take responsibility for accusing of this mistreatment and penalizing it. To seek ways to have that alliance, because we know that these are also very hostile spaces. To seek that space. And finally, due to the cases in our group, it has been materially revealed to us that art is an inclusive space in itself, meaning it has no barriers by its very nature. To see how more artistic spaces are created in educational centers, because they are inherently laboratories of inclusion, naturally, and they are spaces where it can be perceived that inclusion is not a utopia.

So, it also has to do with seeking agents willing to do these types of residencies. Well, it's not that concretely defined, but it's a path that I think can be explored. We believe it can be explored, yes. Everything.

Jesús Moreno:—To add a bit, and linking the group, I don't know if you know that in the project we are already putting into play, and that's why it's so valuable, the voices of ordinary people in the university. For example, in our classes we think, I don't know what the rest of you think, that to educate ourselves as educators, we cannot educate ourselves from cold theories, not that theory is bad, but we have to educate ourselves from the valid, painful, resistant, and valuable experiences of families. So, it's important that families and counselors are there. Then, this is for weaving networks, so it's great. And regarding the network of counselors, the counselor group is precisely working on an 'Alter-evaluation' and on how to generate guidance networks at the service of families and not at the service of a commodified school that seeks the reification of students. So, it's great.

I've put two sticky notes there, in training. If there are more sticky notes in training, both ongoing and initial, they can go directly there, straight away. I've put the 'networks' sticky note in the middle because I think it's something that will also be present. And I've put it in networks with a guiding line, because guidance networks are especially important, perhaps for you to have that support. Then, I also want to let you know, and perhaps I shouldn't say it, that Nacho, Luz, and I are working on a small article that seems trivial, because often they are at the service of our resumes and the university's, but it's precisely a systematic review of how scientific literature, for many years now, says that we all learn more and better together. Not the person with a label, no, all of us together. None have been accepted yet, but it's in process. In it, we try to demystify that special education is what responds to needs. To build on what you were saying.

Shall we continue?

Participant 8 (Concha Casasnovas):—I would like to build on the two comments you made regarding families. I would like to expand on it further. I mean, I think we need to work with the municipality, with the neighborhood, and involve the school with the community of neighbors and the community of neighbors with the school. I think what he said is fundamental. That is, if we don't work with the parents of those we consider 'normal' children, what we are doing will be useless. It's true that they are constant obstacles, who also go out into the neighborhood, into the municipality, and end up stigmatizing. So, I think the school cannot be an abstraction, a center that is up there, where the cool people who know a lot are, and the rest have their own culture, their own stigmas, their own stories. I think we need to do community work there, and we will have to count on who. What you did at La Parra, I mean, I think La Parra is key for that. So, everyone gets together, and grandparents, children, and people from the supermarket work on math by buying figs in the village. But you cannot separate what really, as you rightly say, will lead to labeling in school, because parents will say: 'My child isn't progressing because this one has some issue'.

I mean, I think what we all have to learn together is that we all learn from each other. And that doesn't just happen in school.

Participant 9:—Yes, regarding learning communities, I wish they could be extended more, but well, in the end, that's the direction we're heading. Well, what we wanted to comment on, it's a bit about what you've also commented on: the need to bring in the reality of the students themselves, how students have experienced it. Because, in the end, they are the ones who will be able to tell you 'Hey, I've missed this, I've had these problems', 'how I imagine the ideal school'. And give them that opportunity to speak, and let them be the ones who teach future teachers, future educators. I imagined it last year too, because it was an assignment I had to do for university. I had to do a project to pass this, but I focused it on inclusion and I said to myself, 'Wow, why not have a conference at the university where a documentary is presented, and after that documentary, have a panel discussion where there are no experts, but families, students, those who have experienced this firsthand'. And give them a voice, and let them explain themselves and somehow train others. It would be wonderful. In fact, we've been discussing it, I think we're going to look into bringing the documentary you presented to the faculty, coordinate the Balearic campuses, present it, and have that debate afterwards.

This will open doors for us and then, little by little, we can bombard them with all this material you have here, which is wonderful. I think the first thing I'll do on Sunday when I get home is the Inclusive Psychopedagogical Evaluation Guide. I'm going to give it to my children's school counselor. I think that's the first thing I'll do. "Here, you have some homework." And I don't think I'm missing anything.

Participant 10:—Yes, it's one thing to bring the reality of the schools. I don't work in an educational center, I work in an association, an entity, but to bring our reality to the university and for the university to be able to carry out research projects for our daily lives.

Participant 11:—Yes, for the university that trains teachers, new teachers, to be the ones who truly introduce inclusion, along with that line of research. Not as an optional subject, which is what was happening to them, but as a mandatory one. Because I believe that every time we go to an administration, and in fact, a new law has been put in place stating that we must be inclusive, teachers in the Balearic Islands have rebelled and said they don't have the tools. So, if teachers at the university are teaching, imparting knowledge to new teachers, they should be the ones to instruct them. That is, from the university, it must be done in conjunction with that research, that research team. That they are given those tools, but not as electives, as is happening in the Balearic Islands, but as a mandatory subject.

Participant 9:—Just to clarify, very quickly. So, that proposal comes from saying, of course, I'm being given a theory, right? Of what the direction of current pedagogy should be, but of course, it's very far from reality and from what's happening. So, in the end, I'm the one who always has to make a fuss in class, you can't imagine. To say, "Yes, the theory is very nice, but this is what I'm encountering, and they didn't tell me about it, I'm living it with my son." One thing is what should be and another is what is. So, that's what we're saying, that we should transfer it to universities so that they are realistic about what actually exists.

Participant 10:—Yes, because what happens is that the Administration trains teachers, but, perhaps, there are courses that are only limited to those who want to go. I believe that if we want to create an inclusive society, it should not only be for those who want to go, but for everyone if we want to change this concept of real, effective inclusion, and not just a law that might last two years and then they remove it because there were no tools. There's something else that I've forgotten and I don't know, I'll leave it to you.

Jesús Moreno:—As I said, I will apply the rule I have proposed of not contradicting anything, but I will say, I don't contradict, but I do say. I think that, in reality, the only way to heal ourselves is not for us from the university to teach, because that's what we are doing, what we have been doing for a long time, it's for you to teach us. Therefore, it's useless for us to teach because we are doing it wrong. It's evident that we are doing it wrong and, furthermore, inclusion is not optional. The inclusion course, the one that should be about inclusion, is a core subject in the first year of almost all degrees, in primary, in early childhood education, and in pedagogy, but it's a piece of junk because we don't know what inclusion is at the university, as we continue from a deficit, individualistic clinical model, at the service of the market, and we will continue like this because we are the university. So, you need to come and say: 'No, it's not this, it's that, and I live this, and I suffer like this.' And we truly think about the group, about the smallest part of Málaga, and I don't know what you think about the fact that the only way you can educate us is through suffering and by us suffering with you. Because if we don't suffer with you, nothing changes.

Participant 11:—Well, it seems that things are repeating themselves. On a personal level, I am a university professor, I also spent 10 years in face-to-face teaching, and now I have been teaching online for almost eight years. I teach subjects very closely related to inclusion. Inclusion is something I believe in, diversity too. And in 2006, we organized a conference at the Faculty of Education of the Complutense University, in which 300 students participated. We left it open; we also gave credits for free choice, which was an incentive. But I liked the atmosphere that was generated, because we also made the space accessible. We introduced the concept of functional diversity, which also changes how you name people, it implies social change. And people said, 'What is this functional diversity?' I'm talking about functional diversity from 2006. And in this struggle, there are many families, professionals, and people who advocate for this change of perspective, which is necessary to achieve this transformation. And what I liked most is that, at a certain point, there are no students with any mental health issues, and then, suddenly, three raise their hands. At that time, each faculty had a coordinator in the area of diversity, and I was the coordinator. There was an average of 35 students studying Social Education, Pedagogy, some Teaching degrees, or Psychopedagogy at the faculty.

There were about 35 students, more or less, on average in the Faculty of Education. And two students raised their hands: 'We have a mental health issue, if you want to ask us any questions.' In other words, an atmosphere was created like being in a family, very pleasant. This was in 2006, a lot of water has passed under the bridge, and it continues to rain, millions of things are still being done. The entire inclusive education project is wonderful, which, as Nacho said, has also drawn from the entire Independent Living forum, from all the proposals of 'Nothing about us without us' from the field of diversity itself, from the university. Therefore, what we have said from the beginning is important, that change of vision that each one of us makes in our classes, since the first video came out, since the first minute. That all this material and resource is taken to the classroom as it has been, taken to the entire community and that our students who are going to be future teachers, pedagogues, have all these materials that contribute to them and that they themselves also create.

So, well, my proposal is like this. It seems that we have been hearing the same thing for a long time and it is very nice to say: 'Come on, let's make it concrete, what would I do?' There has always been that need and importance for this training to be real and reach those who will later be in the classroom. But of course, we see everything we are discussing from the family perspective, that it is not an easy path, that we are there, but then you say: 'My goodness, something that is so obvious, that all of us, everyone, are part of' and that then, in the end, there are so many injustices, which is what makes your blood boil. I don't know, I wanted to say that yes, it is true that training is done, that it is necessary to continue doing it and that it is necessary to change that vision of seeing the person, because sometimes no matter how much a man or a woman is worth, they are not worth more than being a person, and we forget that. And we have to remember it in the worlds we live in, so fast-paced.

— Participant 12Moreover, excuse me, I felt addressed because I have gone to the university to give talks and so on, but what I wanted to comment, above all, is that, okay, I have gone to give talks to future teachers about diversity and literature, I have a background in literature, but I believe that none of the families here would lose anything by trying to create that network with the university in our locality or our autonomous community by offering that contact. We are 'x' families, we have this life experience, we want to share it with your students because we don't need to be experts in literature or experts in whatever, we need to share our life experience, which is indeed a specialty in itself. So, moreover, in my case it's not about me, but because what I shared was my experience, not just my knowledge. And it was the most valued part of the entire course for the students. So, this transforms the students. Maybe it doesn't give them the tools to work with in their day-to-day lives, but it does transform their perspectives. So, I wanted to encourage anyone who can to try to find that connection with the nearest university.

You don't have to be, I don't know, whatever, a specialist in literature and diversity, a specialist in mathematics. No, you are family, you know it firsthand, you've lived it. Excuse me, people are asking to speak over there.

— Participant 13I am a student of Social Education at the University of Huelva and, continuing with the topic you were discussing earlier, I think what teachers need is to normalize diversity. They have it denaturalized. I am also the sister of a child with a rare genetic condition. So, since I was little, I have learned to have that inclusive perspective. And of course, seeing the contempt of others towards people with diversity makes me feel sorry for those people, very sorry. I believe that what I have learned to have that perspective is based on my experiences, because I have known what my brother is like; he can get angry, he can have whatever emotions he wants, but that's what makes him unique. And why, being unique, does he not have the same rights as other people?

So, what we had thought was to normalize this diversity through awareness-raising experiences in universities. And what I would like to do within my university would be to screen this documentary and, after watching it, debate and hold workshops.

Participant 14:—After all, if we are here, it's because we have the spark lit, meaning, we don't need to be convinced. But when someone said earlier that the first thing they would do on Monday is to give them the guide, well, maybe that person will take it and put it in a drawer because they are not with the same emotion you have. So, we thought that what you are saying is very important, that it has to be the families and individuals themselves who have their voice, but we, perhaps also, that is to say, to turn it around to say how we can try to convey that experience. Arantxa shared with us that she, at 20 years old, experienced how... (addressing Arantxa, next to her) If you want, let's do a tandem here, right? To keep adding.

Participant 15 (Arantxa):—Yes, well, I was telling them about an awareness-raising experience I had, which has shaped who I am now. Maybe it was destiny, I don't know. And of course, it's that, giving a guide is difficult. It's hard to pick up 20 pages and find a moment to read it, which is great when you're already on your way to get support and say: 'Look, this is true,' but what we need is that, awareness-raising. Through awareness-raising experiences, we talked about escape rooms, but for the teachers themselves, of course, the families themselves, the students, well, it's a bit of everything.

Participant 14:—And, then, from there, when you are already sensitized, start talking and start sharing different experiences that had worked for us when we accompanied a faculty to carry out, let's say, more inclusive practices. Recognizing also the first point, how we systematically segregate, how we are from the theory, thinking that our focus is on doing it, but really not. That is, recognizing what we do daily. So, from there, before trying to understand what roadmap we will follow. Experience, welcoming and listening to experiences. We, in a very humble way, carried out practices where there was an objective, and groups were generated where we also set different levels of support so that people would feel that frustration. It is not comparable to the pain of a mother, a sister, a father, but it is a bit of that level of helplessness of saying, how is it that at a given moment you miss access to learning, no matter how present you are? That's the point.

So, from there, we thought about those dynamics we had carried out. Earlier, we started listing elements that helped us understand cognitive, visual, and sensory accessibility, and so on, on how to turn it around. And if we are talking about that repository, sharing it so that, in the end, one can say: 'Well, this and this worked for me,' because we also talked about how sometimes they become a double-edged sword and don't serve to stigmatize even more. But, well, that repository, in the end, could be shared. It seemed like a very powerful action to us: raising awareness. And then, after visualizing everything we could do from the documentary, supporting each other. Arantxa was at the screening yesterday, but we missed the whole visualization and the debate about what you all felt, but maybe she commits to coming to my neighborhood, and I to hers. Being a support when we share it with families, with the whole community. That is also where all the people belonging to the neighborhood should be included; being there to liven up, liven up the comments and redirect.

Lucía also spoke about bringing it to that university, and perhaps we, from the online side, can also support it. Telling her, 'You are not alone presenting the documentary; we are here for you,' also as logistical support. And then, also towards concrete actions. Perhaps this is more personal, but for me, inclusion begins in early intervention, in how the family is welcomed and how concrete actions are also translated from early childhood education.

So, well, towards that presence and that participation and that learning. Being able to share concrete tools within that repository that are already aimed at that, which perhaps we don't always handle, but there are very useful tools for working with teachers. I, specifically, handle those from early childhood education, but also to mark a different point in that conversation with the family, to gather their concerns. And the same to do with the classroom: what are your concerns in the classroom? And, there, it is also identified what might be happening, but not because the child has autism or cerebral palsy, but rather to look at what the limitations are for participating, for being involved, for having social relationships. I think this is what we also need to stop doing in that repository: segmenting.

Jesús Moreno:—Time is what we have, and it seems so interesting, so much wisdom that you have, and there's nothing there (points to the cardboard on the floor). I mean, what's not there stays only with us. So, we are doing a selfish act, because I am having a great time, I am very comfortable, and learning a lot, but we cannot share it with the rest. What I propose is that I give you the mic now, but that we start thinking about where we are going to put our little paper. Here, I've left space because I. Whoever writes it, there are 7 min left.

Participant 15:—It relates to what was said about neurotypical children, that the families of neurotypical children don't get involved, don't understand. In other words, if we turn this into something for one group and not the other, it's normal that they don't get involved, because you can't get involved in or understand something that doesn't concern you. So, one line we talked about was abandoning the idea of watertight compartments and making this something for everyone. The school must serve all the students it accommodates. Breaking away from the "them and us" mentality. We also talked about, and you've all mentioned it, specific training for the management team, mandatory, not just for teachers, as was said. The management team holds the key to what happens in their educational center. Getting into university, you've all said that. Also, using external resources to advise the university, the schools, or everyone. Proposing new teacher training, and also working with families, which is very important. Empowering families, informing them, providing strategies, and accompanying them. Do you want to add anything else?

Participant 16:—Well, I want to add going beyond training, to supervise the entire faculty, where somehow evidence is given to the professional who disrespects, who acts, the word escapes me, who may even use violence or disrespect towards a child, and to empower or give more strength to the professional who is doing it well. It's a supervision that goes far beyond training.

Participant 17:—Well, briefly, I wanted to share this with you. I arrived late because I'm traveling. I'm speaking from my experience, from what has helped me the most. Everything that has been said is evident, but there's still an inability to reach. What I've noticed in my journey as a mother is that, at the beginning, the barrier or the distance I felt with the teaching team I wanted to ally with was growing. The more I pointed out to them what they weren't doing and what they weren't managing to do and their failures, the further away they felt from me and the worse it got.

And suddenly, looking for solutions where there are none, I was at a talk with Gerardo Echeita and he told me something: "Ruth, maybe what I'm about to tell you won't make you feel good, but have you considered that maybe you are, without realizing it, putting up more barriers to your daughter's inclusion?" Then, I started to think: "I'm telling them everything they're not doing, exactly what I'm asking them not to do to my daughter." And from then on, I made a tremendous effort, and I continue to do so. It's very, very difficult for me, every time I meet with them, to regulate myself, not to point out the flaw, to acknowledge everything they are doing, but at the same time, to say how I want things to go. It's extremely costly, it's a constant level of regulation. However, I believe there are many teachers who want to do things well, I'd say most of them, but they don't know how and they're terrified. And then, I notice that when you find that common ground, something starts to move. It's still all very precarious.

But if we don't start there, I think that no matter how much we go to a management team and tell them: "It's just that if you do mandatory training, it won't matter, it won't help you." Something will help, I think they are levels. So I think there's an institutional level, a macro level, a training level, but then there's the micro level of relationships and how to help families and teachers establish those levels of collaboration.

Teresa Rascón:—Well, listening to you, and somewhat in line with what we've discussed, for me, the experience at La Parra has been an incredible learning opportunity, precisely because, well, because we've lived together, we've met each other, because I believe that inclusion has more to do with, as I'm learning, with knowing each other, loving each other, accepting each other as we are. And, well, there will always be challenges, problems, conflicts in a school. This is my experience in training. But if we go together, things change. For example, La Parra, which surprised me a lot, and also my colleagues Nacho and Tere, is that they give voice first to the students, then to the families.

At first, all the teaching staff spoke, and hardly any families or students attended, and the faculty itself, as if nothing was happening, right? Well, no, the families and students have to be involved. And for some time now, in meetings, we first listen to what the students say, because they are our great teachers, they are the ones who are clearest about what needs to be done and who see things, who solve them in a much simpler way. Of course, we listen and learn from the families. And we, from the university, are not going to give any lectures or courses.

That is, not a lecture at a specific moment, which I think is important, but a process of experiencing, of living together, of getting to know each other, of loving each other, of appreciating each other. That's it, we are on the path to inclusion, I believe, because it is also very dangerous. 50% of the schools change the following year, which means we have to keep getting to know each other, learning, and living together. And then, I do commit to continuing in that direction, that is, the idea is that it doesn't stay at La Parra. We are going to form networks with other schools, so that the school becomes the point from which that work emerges from all sectors of the community, as Concha said, with the people.

Even, I would add something else, like learning by doing a service to the community, what we talked about regarding service-learning. I think if two more schools join next year, fantastic, if three or four join the following year... that's how we can create networks. I think it's spectacular learning as a person, regardless of where the voice comes from.

Jesús Moreno:—I want to say something, but let's see how I can say it. Inclusion is not something absolute, it's a process. It's true, but for me, for example, and I'm going to speak from the 'I', this requires an effort, because I learn a lot, but at the same time, I lack a lot of humility. And I say it like this because, when I listen and even read things, things get stirred up in me, because we are not all in the same places. And I would like to point something out. We all want the same thing, which is the best for everyone, everyone, and everyone, but I think it's important that we also be and think that this is a political issue, above all, it's not a matter of being good or bad. It's a political issue and, also, a paradigmatic one. I want to use a very ugly word that we use at the university: 'ontological'. That is, how we understand reality, how we position ourselves in relation to it. And perhaps we need to review ourselves, because when we say, unintentionally, that they have diversity, I don't have diversity, they are the ones with functional diversity. If they are the ones, maybe they are still the disabled people. It's something that's more. Or if we think from the paradigm of normality, for example, without intending to be neurotypical, neurotypical is normality. Then, in reality, we are legitimizing discourses that go against us.

It is not a criticism of us. For me, everyone here has tremendous value and we are in the same boat, but let's think, because sometimes we want to go in one direction, but we use the tools of the enemy and the languages of the enemy, and they colonize our discourse, and in the end, everyone is inclusive. I was at a conference a month ago. The teachers' perceptions of inclusion were that everyone is inclusive, but resources are lacking. Bullshit, we are inclusive. I mean, in this workshop I have heard people say several times that their family members are people, as they would say in 2006 and 1982, and they will say in 2032, because we must remember that they are people because we are in the paradigm of normality. And well, I won't go on, but let's often think that language shapes reality and where we are, beyond concrete practices.

Thank you very much.

(Applause)

Audio description [AD]:The workshop concludes, and the people in the group begin to get up and chat animatedly. Then, the rest of the groups join them. Under the projection, at the central table, sit Jesús Moreno, Teresa Racón, Ignacio Calderón, and Luz Mojtar. In front, the entire group prepares to share opinions. They have removed the poster board from the previous workshop. The three spokespersons from each workshop take seats in adjacent chairs, facing the group.

Ignacio Calderón:—Well, let's continue. We had actually planned two assemblies, but we've combined them because we've run over time. The first was to share our findings, which we'll do now, on what was discussed in the workshops, where we've arrived with each of the workshops, and from there, make decisions to see what the strategy we'll follow over the next year will entail. Now, the spokespersons for each workshop should present what was decided there from workshop number 1. Come on.

Spokesperson 1 (Leti):—Hello. Well, I'm going to try to get you to quiet down by talking, but I don't know if I'll succeed (laughter). I'm an early childhood teacher and I'm going to try to give some brief insights because many strategies have come up. Many of them have to do with the role that families and students play in the training of teachers and trainers. We've dedicated a lot of time to that. So, first of all, make the most of the material that already exists as a catalyst for these awareness-raising processes, because it's material that already exists and, let's say, comes from a slightly more legitimate place than that of families or students, even though it's our voices, it's like it has more authority. So, we have to take advantage of that material in all the spaces possible. Also, work a lot on what has to do with the community at different levels. That is, strengthen school-neighborhood, neighborhood-school networks and, also, act as inclusive agents, ourselves, with our context. That is, train not only teachers, but also the families of our children's classmates and our sons' and daughters' classmates. Bring the reality of students into teacher training, taking advantage of this material we mentioned and also offering ourselves. That is, feeling like valid agents to go to the nearest Faculty of Education and say, 'I have a life experience that I believe is very valuable and that you should take into account'.

So, I and my group offer ourselves as educational agents that you can use in the training of trainers. Also take advantage of the resources that we families, in many cases, and in other cases, other agents, such as associations and purely educational materials, already generate. There are many of us who adapt materials for our children, with a more inclusive approach, more accessible, with a UDL approach, and these are underutilized resources that exist, we use them for our children and there they stay. So, create a kind of repository that could be available to other families as well as to those teachers who tell us they don't know how to do it and that we have already paved the way for how to do it. An available repository. And also, with awareness-raising experiences, create that repository of things that have worked to create that receptivity, which is the first step before moving forward. There must be a need to make the change. Collect and make available those awareness-raising experiences.

Then, there's a more guerrilla-style approach, which has to do with infiltrating teacher training networks. Not in a sneaky way, but to ensure that our discourse, which is very valuable, is present in spaces legitimized by teachers and that they are willing to listen to it. So, seek alliances with teacher training networks to be able to place the experiences of students and families. And also, in a guidance network that is already being formed. Take advantage of these authoritative voices to transfer experiences and practices that already exist to the center, and that we are not the hysterical mothers coming to impose our utopian vision of education.

Y, luego, tiene que ver con la autodefensa y con los derechos, buscar redes de apoyo legal en las comunidades. Es decir, en muchos casos nuestras demandas no prosperan porque no sabemos cursarlas por los cauces adecuados. Intentar formar esa estrategia. Asumiendo que lo que se está haciendo en muchos casos es maltrato, ver cómo llegamos a las fiscalías de menores y que estas estén predispuestas a escucharnos. Y por último, unas últimas cosas que tienen que ver con experiencias como el arte como espacio inclusivo, naturalmente inclusivo. Ver formas también de que el arte tenga más espacio en las escuelas para que sea una experimentación, una vivenciación de experiencias inclusivas de éxito. Cuando las cosas se hacen en entornos más flexibles y creativos, funcionan, porque sabemos que funcionan. Entonces, proporcionar esas experiencias de éxito y demostrar que es posible buscar alianzas en el arte. Y aparte de supervisar las prácticas.

Dos últimas aportaciones que nos parecen esenciales, aunque son igual más abstractas, y tienen que ver con no hacer a los centros lo que nosotros no queremos que les hagan a nuestros hijos. Que muchas veces estamos muy en la posición de «es que no hacéis esto, es que no hacéis esto, es que no hacéis esto». Cuando nos quejamos de las reuniones en las que nos dicen: «Es que tu hijo no hace esto, es que tu hijo no hace esto, es que tu hijo no hace esto». Entonces, buscar la forma de ser nosotros, aunque no nos toque, los generadores de un espacio de verdadero encuentro y de verdadera escucha, por mucho que nos duela y muy difícil que sea porque está el mundo en guerra con nosotros. Generar esa convivencia para que sea, a partir de la confianza, donde pueda surgir la colaboración.

(Aplausos)

Portavoza 2:— Me falta Raúl aquí (señala una silla a su lado). Raúl, acompáñame. Y mientras Raúl viene, voy a decir que los del taller 1 nos han copiado un poco a los del 2.

(Risas)

Audiodescripción [AD]: Raúl Aguirre se acerca y toma asiento a su lado.

Spokesperson 2:— My head is already a bit saturated. If I leave something out or say something, please correct me and expand on it. We have debated a lot and agree on some things and strategies with what Leti has proposed. We continue to insist on creating networks and sharing what each of us is already doing in our own space and from our own position with others. There is a colleague who spoke about having legislation-based documents, which she will share with all of us. I don't know where she is now. She will share them with us, but keeping in mind that each community has its own legislation. Then, another strategy was to also share experiences, as Leti said. There are things that are already being done, that we don't have to invent anything. So, sharing and giving voice to those experiences, collaborating not only among ourselves, but involving other entities such as universities, bar associations, other organizations, NGOs, and various other entities that can contribute.

Also, a very interesting strategy, which we would need to figure out how to implement, is to create an observatory for educational negligence. A colleague looked up the definition of negligence and, well, I think we came up with about 20, just like that, off the top of our heads, each of us. So, the observatory would be a good idea. Insisting on coexistence, because it is the guarantee of a change in perspective, supporting each other in our claims and supporting each other physically, uniting sisterhood and pressure, which implies a family going accompanied to an office, for example. Investing our time in claims, even though it is tedious and, at times, doesn't achieve anything.

Another very interesting aspect is involving local administrations. We already know they don't have competencies in Education, but inclusion must be intersectional, it must permeate us and go beyond the school. So, perhaps, by starting at the local level, we can expand. Then, we continue talking about giving voice to students, creating student councils, student commissions, working on their participation; fostering, encouraging, and creating spaces where they feel free to express themselves. And we talk about contagion, we have to seek to spread it, seek allies among teachers, among families. Here, parent-teacher associations (AMPAs) would also come in, because there are some that work for inclusion, some of them.

Insisting on training and information to empower both families and teachers. And looking for the positive and moving towards the positive, starting from the positive. We know that the negative is there and often wins over the positive, but we have to find the crack through which the little grass will begin to grow in the wall. And well, I don't know if I've left anything out. School networks. You spoke of guidance networks, we talk about school networks, about sharing good experiences. Well, a bit of what we are discussing here, what we already know and what we need to roll up our sleeves for and each one of us start working in our own area and from our own little corner. And from there, keep adding. Is everything okay? Did I say it right? (Addressing Raúl)

Raúl Aguirre:— Yes.

(Applause)

Spokesperson 2:— Thank you.

Spokesperson 3:— Well, it's my turn to talk about the strategies we've discussed. There's also been debate regarding political advocacy, and we've identified four fundamental blocks. The first is to build networks of trust with both the media and politicians. The second is to utilize the material that has already been created, the different guides, documents that can serve us, the screening of the documentary, and to get students involved in schools, families through the AMPAs, guidance counselors, and teachers. The third block is to raise awareness with citizens, create spaces with other movements and associations, but it's very important to identify which association, which professional bodies, which unions, which political parties, which universities, which training centers. And the fourth, which we've considered transversal, is to create a defined strategy. Having a defined strategy, developing a set of arguments to convey the same message. And that set of arguments must have three fundamental points: an argument, reasoning, and evidence.

We also need to consider two perspectives, both positive and negative. Why negative? Because we need to identify it in order to argue and to refute that negative perspective. The three fundamental points are having an argument, reasoning, and evidence. And to finish, I want to say that I couldn't be happier, that I'm delighted to be here, and really, you've made me very happy.

(Applause)

Nacho Calderón:— Well, the three spokespersons. As you have your notes, perhaps, if you move to the table now and speak with Jesús and Luz, you can review the notes they've taken in case there's anything you want to emphasize. Okay, now we'll open a debate to try to ground all of this or some of these lines; we don't have to do them all. We need to set a direction. The idea is to do work that lasts for a year and is done by territories, and that all these territories are also connected to each other. So, the first task we had planned in our group, which was about political advocacy, but ultimately everything is political advocacy, is that practices in schools are political. How we build culture is also political, and of course, when we talk about the broader structure. So, we had thought that a first task could be the construction of steering groups in each territory. So, now I'm going to Málaga and I say: 'Okay, and who do I start by working with?'

In the chest, we have the places of origin, because it's possible that two people have come from the same place and don't know it. Perhaps now would be the time to take note of those people. But beyond those who have come now, it will be about identifying what other people and allies can serve us to build these steering groups. I mentioned it earlier in the other group. The steering group is not the main group, it's not the most important group; it is an important group, but it's not *the* most important one, okay? It's important because it has to mobilize other people, and therefore, steering groups must be diverse. They should include students, teachers, other school agents, university researchers, people from associations, or neighbors from the area, okay? The point is to think that the first task is to build a steering group in a short timeframe, for example, one month, so that all these steering groups are constituted and we can start getting the wheels turning.

Well, that's a first proposal. And among the things I've heard around, there was the idea of involving other people, and we would need to think about finding allies. Allies means that just anyone won't do. Perhaps those people who are not suitable right now will be in the future, but for this moment, it's important to form good alliances, to build the alliances that we understand align with what we've been designing so far. And one more thing, apart from all this that has been discussed, one of the things that was even mentioned was using the material we have. I'll remind you again, we have a guide on how to do participatory action research in schools, that is, a guide for schools and educational communities. We have a guide on how to dissent, which has its steps. We have a guide on how students can get to work to make their school more inclusive, with students as protagonists. And we have a guide on psychopedagogical assessment. All of this, within that one-month timeframe, I believe we will have it all. If it's not beautifully published, maybe it won't be pretty, okay? But we will be able to count on them. We have the psychopedagogical assessment guide, that is, how we can conduct psychopedagogical assessment from an inclusive approach. And finally, we have a guide on how to do political advocacy, which we designed for the LOMLOE, but which is valid for communities.

So, all of that forms a puzzle that rests on a pivot, which is participation, and I think it makes a lot of sense and we can use it. Well, I'll be quiet now. And now, a round of proposals to see how we land all this, or what we land to reach agreements on what we are going to do.

Participant 1:—I propose that, from each community, at least those of us who are here, a person, so to speak, a representative of the community, emerges, who can keep the rest of the people in that community informed and who can also create that communication network among everyone.

Ignacio Calderón:—I don't think we need to do it here today.

(The group speaks at the same time) (Laughter)

Ignacio Calderón:— In reality, the participatory proposal is not about representativeness, but about participation. So, there is no one here representing other people. Here there have been students who, in a personal capacity, started talking, and we recognized those voices as valuable, but they were not representing anyone. So, we will do the same in the proposals we put forward, but by autonomous community. Come on, let's continue. More ideas. I'm giving away a mic. More ideas.

Participant 2:— Thinking about what we also discussed in workshop three, perhaps through that link, coordinate the dissemination of the documentary in all possible places, institutions, educational centers, in a coordinated way so that everyone knows where it is being shown. Since the documentary has just premiered and it was proposed to show it and start promoting it now, perhaps I wouldn't know how to do it, right? But through the link or the steering group if it is created soon.

Ignacio Calderón:— I don't think the steering groups need much time either. I think if we set a deadline of one month, it's more than a reasonable timeframe, and it gives us time to prepare it. And beyond that, we can make proposals to 'Quererla es crearla', for example, if someone wants to organize a screening in a city council. It would certainly be interesting, afterwards, for the steering groups to say, 'Well, a strategic line will be to screen the documentary in our city council'; that's a strategic line. Or we will try to get it into schools, that's another. We could decide that a little later, that is, propose that screenings be held in some emblematic places. (Addressing participant 5). Was that what you were referring to?

Participant 3:— And the debate guide.

Ignacio Calderón:— Ah, yes. The discussion guide was a proposal that came up in our group, if you'd like to explain it.

Participant 4:— Well, we had discussed that if the documentary is screened, to get the most out of it in terms of inclusion, we should have a presentation or a discussion guide so that it's not just watching it, turning around, and going home. If we have a guide with some phases, it always helps to ensure it has real visibility and that people take away a message of inclusion.

Ignacio Calderón:— Very good. Any other ideas?

Participant 5:— Who is going to write the guide?

Ignacio Calderón:— Well, I think it's not difficult. We, or the steering group that has been involved in the documentary, can create a script, I believe, to facilitate a debate that anyone can lead. I think it will be a useful tool. Very well, any other ideas.

Participant 6:— Regarding the tasks that have emerged as more cross-cutting, like the argumentation framework, I see how the territorial groups work, and I'm not sure if, from there, we then select people to carry out these more collective tasks or if a group is formed for, for example, that specific activity. We were talking about the argumentation framework because we saw that we needed it.

Ignacio Calderón:— Yes, the argumentation framework is something that came up in the political advocacy workshop. It raised the need to create an argumentation framework, because even though we think we think the same about inclusion, we don't think the same. We need to be clear about that. We don't think the same, and that's okay. We don't think the same, and furthermore, the people who join won't think the same either; that's okay, but we need to have some established lines. So, those established lines should generate argumentation frameworks that are simple, that we can share and say, 'well, this is about topics that are particularly heated or current.' For example, the issue of closing special education centers will be asked about in all communities. So, we can create an argumentation framework about that. It needs to be something simple. Carla was explaining very well earlier how to do it simply, and we have all the work that has been developed below, which is deeply developed and supports what we can say in a few words. I think those of us who have been acting as the steering group here should also take on that now.

Any other ideas. Although perhaps we could suggest topics for which we think it's important to create argumentation frameworks. Some will be emergent, because tomorrow a news story comes out about something, and it becomes a topic for an argumentation framework, but others are permanent. The one about special education centers is a permanent topic. There are other topics, for example, psycho-pedagogical assessments. The other day, I had an interview, and a journalist who interviewed me about inclusive education asked me about curricular adaptations. Well, let's create an argumentation framework. More ideas.

Participant 7 (José Luis Aguirre):— For me, what I would like to propose, for when we debate with schools or with people and families who are keen on special schools, is to conduct an economic study of what special education really costs and how that could be redirected to mainstream schools, to a single school system. A written and argued study, 'It costs 6 million for this and that.' And if they exceed that, to inclusive education, because they always say: 'no, no, it's just that...'. And in fact, most failures in mainstream schools, well, all of them have been due to lack of resources. So the economic aspect is very important. And families cling to this issue a lot. So, let's do a study, let's see if we can manage to make it not so, even by zone.

Participant 8:— Two concrete things that had come up, one that I thought of after a long debate. On the one hand, there's the issue of rights defense workshops, how they are put into practice, meaning, not just with a guide, but with in-person rights defense workshops. And then, I was thinking about something else that colleagues, I think from Ecologistas en Acción, mentioned to me: activism workshops. For example, in the workshop we were in, there were several of us, and it was like, 'well, maybe we also need to learn tools for political advocacy strategies.' Therefore, in the same way that, perhaps, we hold rights defense workshops, on how we resolve this step by step, beyond having the guide, which sometimes is also difficult to understand, we can hold activism workshops. Exactly. For example, how to interact with the administration.

Ignacio Calderón:— The thing is, we would have to think, beyond the ideas we are developing, about how to take on doing them. For example, if you have the capacity to form a group that does that workshop online, for instance, for everyone and all territories, then that's a win for us.

Participant 8:— In fact, I think we have some recorded, I'll check later and see if we can recover them. And I'm speaking now, not as Monse, but as Ecom. The difficulty I perhaps see, or rather, is that in the general framework we might have it very clear, but then, sometimes, each autonomous community has specific regulations, a specific way of operating, and this is where we might get lost. I mean, in Catalonia, but I think it would also be interesting to break them down by each autonomous community because, perhaps, it also has specific regulations or a specific way of operating, I don't know.

Ignacio Calderón:— Ahora mismo, corremos un peligro, yo lo veo, ¿vale? Corremos el peligro de ahogarnos en demasiadas cosas. Entonces, creo que lo importante que es tratar de simplificar y saber que siempre hay profundidad, o sea, hacer algo simple que después siempre se puede profundizar. Y, después, tenemos que pensar también que ahora mismo estamos diseñando lo general; por supuesto, después se desarrolla en cada sitio. La idea de hacer formaciones creo que debería recorrer las diferentes herramientas que tenemos. Por ejemplo, la guía «Cómo hacer investigación-acción participativa». Si vamos a hacer investigación-acción participativa en los diferentes territorios, más allá de tener la guía, deberíamos poder hacer un encuentro online o varios encuentros online en los que se piensen juntos cómo hacerlo, que se planteen las dudas. Ahora, ¿qué es lo que hacemos nosotros? Bueno, pues lo que podríamos plantear es esto o aquello, de modo que no se quede la gente sola, sino que hagamos grupo de apoyo. Bueno, más ideas.

Participante 9:— Sobre el tema de la accesibilidad, yo quería proponer que en todas las producciones que salgan de este grupo y las que ya hay, se creen varios formatos. Por ejemplo, un vídeo en lengua de signos o en lectura fácil, para que realmente pueda llegar a todo el mundo, porque al final hay un formato que es estándar y si utilizamos diferentes formas de representarlo, llegaremos a más gente.

Participante 10 (Raúl Calleja):— Sí, mira, quería puntualizar lo de hacer el estudio económico argumentando sobre lo que supone tener abiertas las escuelas especiales. Ese estudio ya existe. Existe, yo tengo la información. Es un estudio que, además, desmantela todo el argumentario de la escuela especial, porque son carísimas, carísimas. Y la prueba es que es más del 60 % de los centros especiales son privados. Hay un estudio a nivel nacional muy bueno, y a nivel internacional también, sobre cómo se pierde producto interior bruto al tener a las personas en los centros de educación especial y no tenerlas participando en la vida social.

Ignacio Calderón:— De hecho, a mí me duele decirlo, porque una de las ideas que plantea la propia Unesco es que las escuelas inclusivas son más eficaces y económicamente más rentables. Pero hay que tener cuidado al decirlo, porque te pueden dar la vuelta a la tortilla.

Participante 11:— It has to do with what my colleague, Montse, was saying, and with something someone mentioned in the morning: what do we do about what's happening today with certain children, with this boy, with this girl? Raúl said: 'I offer to provide training for counselors or a support group.' I think online, I don't know how, without drowning, which also worries me, but having these self-defense workshops. If we families don't know, or if teachers feel alone in their school, we need to share strategies beyond those materials. This morning I was with Conchi who said: 'Well, this battle, from here up to the fourth year of ESO that I'm teaching,' and I said, 'Well, whatever I can learn.' So, it's something we've also talked about for the boys and girls, right? Self-defense workshops. Supporting that idea a bit. I don't know how we can do it. Maybe a first pilot workshop with someone who has done something. Try one for students, another for families. We have the experience of feminist self-defense workshops. How can we bring that here? I don't know, I love that, sharing those day-to-day strategies, like walking down the street and someone saying, 'Where are you going?, and your mom?', and so on, and how to respond. Maybe share if it's already being done.

Participant 2:—Let's see, two things. One related to what's being discussed. I propose, and I'm getting into a tricky situation, that the AMPA federations each organize these training sessions in their province, in their community, because we talk about how each community has different regulations, so let's make them adapted. That each AMPA federation can adapt them to the community. There it is, my colleague is going to kill me. And then, we talk about sharing good experiences, school networks, counseling networks. So, I propose creating a collaborative document where we can present these good experiences and which schools are working well, to then create a database that can be published and that everyone can access and see what is being done.

Ignacio Calderón:—I propose, along the lines of what you're suggesting, that by next year, in each territory, a school be chosen, and that school implement one of the proposals we've made, document it on video, and at the end of next year, we'll make a documentary with those videos from within the school. I say it's along those lines and I think it could be useful, like CEIP La Parra or like the student guide, or I don't know, other experiences out there. We say that schools are exclusionary, yes, but there are also schools that are doing things that work, and maybe they're not doing everything perfectly. La Parra isn't either, I mean, I don't know a school that is perfect because it's impossible, but they are on the path. So, what we need to do is gather what some people, schools that can serve others, are doing on the path. More ideas.

Teresa Rascón:—Well, picking up on the idea you mentioned about making the material more accessible. We, the people who create this material, are all of us, but it's true that, often, to materialize it, there are fewer of us. So, I would like to propose from here, because I heard a colleague this morning tell Nacho: 'I think you should translate that documentary into another language, I offer to do it because I work in this.' So, in that sense, if there's another person who works in this, who can make any of the materials more accessible, who offers that service through the 'Quererla es crearla' page. We would be very grateful, because the further this message reaches, the more people we will reach and that change of culture will occur. That, on the one hand, is to say, let everyone contribute what they can contribute, and say it, okay? And we'll take advantage of it.

And, on the other hand, it aligns somewhat with what María Jesús and Marta have mentioned. For example, in the workshop I attended, which was workshop number 2, ‘Families for Inclusion,’ an association shared something they were doing in Castilla-La Mancha. Basically, they had created an association where they were posting, or were going to post, for instance, the rights that families have in that autonomous community, because we know that legislation varies from one community to another. The rights and instruments available to families, which we often don't know about. Email templates. Their idea is to post it and only have to modify everything related to legislation, all the steps that are taken, and to share the struggles that families go through, so that newcomers have everything ready. They'll even have email templates. This is being done in Castilla-La Mancha. They also told me that another association has partnered with them, in Aragon, and there are surely many initiatives in this regard in other autonomous communities.

Well, this would be my proposal: to create an information network, for example, regarding the legislative sphere or to expand it to others. To create that network. If someone has contact with these entities or works in them, it would also be good for them to share the work of that entity and their autonomous community there. Let's see if we can put them in contact and start weaving these networks.

Participant 12:—Nothing, it's just a quick note to materialize some of the ideas that came up. The point about allies, which in theory each autonomous community should seek out, where are we going to upload that information, because it would be optimal to operationalize a shared database so that, when a documentary is presented or a press release is issued, we can send it to all those collaborating agents in the territory.

Ignacio Calderón:—I would say that we need to think here about what we are going to do as a network, and then, it will be done in the territories. Each territory will have to specify its own.

Participant 13 (Paula Verde):—Building on what you were saying, Nacho, for next year, those videos of practices, related to what Chus was talking about, also positive ones, it reminds me of the responses when Leo's proposal was launched, about loneliness, to make specific videos of practices and things that were being done positively so that there wouldn't be loneliness in the playgrounds. I, for example, had a positive experience, specifically, and the center could share it as such. Now [Héctor] is no longer at that center, but beyond that. Perhaps they are small, specific experiences, which don't need to be a 'La Parra' movement, but concrete things that spread positivity, because there was a lot of talk about spreading positivity. What we did came to mind, and we asked for those videos, right?

Ignacio Calderón:— In our workshop, we also talked about trying not to always show the negative, but also to show the positive. Well, more ideas. We have less than half an hour left and we need to wrap up. (Pointing to the projection on the wall) That's a list that's huge, so that can't be done. Now we have to think strategically about what we're going to do.

(Laughter)

Participant 14:— Good morning, good afternoon… I don't even know what time it is anymore.

(Laughter)

Participant 14:— Well, if you notice, I think you've noticed. Practically, all the options and everything that has been proposed from each of the workshops coincide on many things that those of us who were already in the Málaga Workshop proposed. They are coming out here, today, four years later. So, if we can land this a little more and focus, I would say that next year we will all be doing work in our respective territories. Let's make it very easy, let's align ourselves with everything that has already been done. There's a lot to do in a year, we're not going to have time to generate a lot of videos again, that's not the task. The task is to do advocacy today with what has already been done. I understand that if all of us here, and there are more than a hundred of us, commit to finding a place to broadcast the documentary, it's something grounded, it's easy, and each person does it in their own place, of course, and those who can, in two. And we will have already screened the documentary 400 times. If we commit to getting in touch with Teacher Training, because this has to start from there, in many cases, some people will achieve something, others won't, and there's a lot of information there to start from.

Imagine a screening in each of the Teacher Training centers, and also in a city council. I don't think it's an unattainable goal; in one year we could aim to ensure the accessibility of materials, which I consider a fundamental objective. If we already have all the material and information, tomorrow we will demonstrate with a manifesto to which we have adhered and about which we all agree, those of us who are here. That already gives us work for a year. Of course, we have work for a year because we tend to get scattered and we need to specify the work of the driving groups. But, look, four years ago, Nacho, don't be alarmed.

Ignacio Calderón:—Look, we need to pick up on lines, but I also think we shouldn't get stuck on one of the tools. One of the tools, any of them, it doesn't matter. Imagine that in a community they say: 'in a school we have managed to get a guide used.' A guide, isn't it interesting that a video comes out of that experimentation? Isn't that possible? The center itself generates it, and then it's sent to the national level. And, there, something collective is generated like: 'this is happening in Extremadura, this is happening in Galicia, this is happening in Andalusia...' In other words, something emerges from what we've done. Very good. More ideas, more ideas. But to be specific.

Participant 15:—Hello. Perhaps, I don't know what you think, but if we think from here, not in a year, but in two months, the first of the actions has already been mentioned: that during the first month, the driving groups in each community are identified. It might be that in the second month. Once those driving groups have been identified, each driving group has identified which schools, which counselors, or which politicians they are going to talk to. Having that ready, for example, in the second month, that mapping of actors, might be feasible and it's one of the initial and main things that need to be done, knowing who to talk to in order to then know what the ideas are. And during this second month, for example, the University of Malaga also has connections with other academic centers in other parts of Spain. So, not only looking at what exists in our territory, because people who live in other territories also know or have connections with other institutions. So, starting to create that map in the second month, for example, and in the third month already knowing who we are going to talk to. For example, we had a list of 50, and we are going to talk to five. Taking those steps in this specific field. Perhaps, other things can be done in parallel, but perhaps giving it that order can be important. I don't know.

Participant 16:—Look, it's occurring to me that, since we are all saying that the main thing we should do is project the video in each autonomous community, what occurs to me is, why don't we, under the name Quererla es crearla, organize an inclusion day in each autonomous community and, at that inclusion day, we can both project the video and create an assembly or a colloquium after projecting the video. We can also present, as Nacho said, the positive experiences from each school. I think that at that inclusion day, we can do everything we are proposing. And under the name Quererla es crearla, we could create a calendar and say, 'On such a date, we will do it in this community.' Obviously, we may not be able to be at every inclusion day, but the driving group from that community that is at the inclusion day can be. I think that if it's an inclusion day where professionals and families are also present, we could also share our negative or positive experiences. So, I think that at an inclusion day, everything we are proposing can be done.

Participant 17:—Perhaps, I would put a calendar and a date, maybe, I would say: 'by next month, we all commit to bringing the documentary' and then, see if that follow-up has been done and if that objective has been met in all communities and what impact it has had. I think that would be the proposal, in the short term, so that it is fulfilled and carried out. Maybe in another month, maybe another idea could be to go to schools.

Ignacio Calderón:—I think we have to leave here with the idea that, first, what we have decided, we can do it. That is the first thing, it has to be doable. So, the idea of showing the documentary, the idea of forming working groups, we know we can do it. Okay? And now let's think, what else do we decide will also be done?

Jesús Moreno:—I'm going to try to be practical. I think that, here, there were people with blue badges, who are teachers, educators, and so on. I want to think, from my position, as a university professor, that I commit to this semester, in my class, some people present here being actors in my class, right? To show the documentary. So, in my class, I know Nacho will do it, I know Luz will do it. What I ask of the other teachers is that we all commit to doing it, or all of us who can in that way. So, if there are 10 of us, then 10 are enough. And if we can also talk to other teachers about what we are doing and so on. Think about school teachers and parents what you can do. I commit to this and I think it can be interesting for us to carry it out.

(Applause)

Participant 18:—I couldn't see the documentary yesterday, but I found out that the minister came, right? So, my proposal is that, if we managed to bring the Minister of Education, if there are people who can influence our communities to get the documentary to the Minister of Education, I don't know. In fact, Alejandro was mentioning it, the elections are next year, and we can invite political parties, I don't know, to have an event with all these key players who move the pieces in the game, strategically speaking, and show them this documentary. If the minister could come, I think, maybe, from our autonomous community, those key people in Education or, maybe, in political parties, strategically, but get it to them.

Participant 19:— Hello, good afternoon. I think everything we're discussing is great, but I believe we might be getting too global, as was said in the old 2021 agenda. Think globally, act locally. Before seeing the documentary, I was already writing an email because I felt the need to say, 'Hey, I talk about this in my town hall, I don't know how to organize it,' talk to the AMPAs. Even now, I've gotten an idea with the teacher training center in my province, which would be, 'Hey, I'd like to do this in my own town, because that's really where I see I can act.' At the regional level, it seems a bit too broad to me, because if I advertise, for example, yes, it will be done in Andalusia, Seville; however, the teachers I want to see the documentary are my son's teachers, the families who live there and don't go there. Now, if we do it in a place closer to everyone... maybe you know what I mean. So, at least I commit to trying it in my town hall and I will try to contact the AMPAs of Rota, see what they say and how we can organize it locally. If you see that it really has to be done by communities, then, as she said, the conferences at the community level seem more significant, right?

Ignacio Calderón:— (Addresses several participants) You should talk about your experience in teacher training.

Participant 20:— We, in addition to representing the Federation of Cádiz, represent the Andalusian Confederation of AMPAs, which means we have direct contact with the regional education departments, with the teacher training centers, and we can extend everything that is agreed upon. And, of course, we can reach more places, and in fact, we offer ourselves and commit to it. You already know, last year we had the experience in Cádiz, where for the first time, according to you, and I'm glad it was for the first time, the opportunity was offered to have a panel of only students, a panel of families, where all the experiences of each group were shared, and it was, truly, one of the most moving experiences we've had as a federation and as families. We hope to repeat it. We've already said it, you are invited, summoned, to Cádiz, again. We'll refine all this as we go, but I tell you that the AMPAs of Andalusia are at your disposal because we are represented here, right now. Of course, with everyone's agreement and how we want and decide to do it, establishing the guidelines.

Participant 21:— I'm going to convey and share that, personally, I'm feeling overwhelmed by the issue of coordination, because I believe it can very easily happen that many individual efforts, without being coordinated, might step on each other's toes, be misunderstood, and be duplicated.

Ignacio Calderón:— I would propose that, of all that has come out, we bold a few lines. First, organize screenings of the documentary. That seems obvious. And to generate guides for a person as a liaison and the construction of working groups. Yes, that comes up. It's not difficult. I'm looking at Susana so she doesn't scold me.

(Laughter)

Ignacio Calderón:— The screening will be requested by each territory. That is to say, it won't happen if you don't call and ask the city council if they will let you have the room on a certain day. Yes. Tell me, Raúl…, are you leaving? Goodbye.

(Everyone says goodbye to Raúl Aguirre with applause)

Ignacio Calderón:— I was saying that, this someone who does it doesn't have to be anyone representative of anything. I go to my city council and ask them to let me have a room to show a screening. If they say yes, I send an email to ‘Quererla es crearlas’, and I've organized it. And then, I have to publicize it. Okay. That's another thing. For that, there's the issue of the guides.

Okay, (points to a proposal on screen) the economic aspect, out. Or, if anything, what can be done is to include that economic study. Let's include the economic study that has already been done on the Quererla es crearla website, in the ‘We Know’ section. Okay? If anyone wants to use it for whatever, they have the document there. Okay, come on, more things. Something that can be done. Come on, I'll ask Susana so she doesn't scold me. Susana, what can be done?

Participant 22 (Susana):—(Inaudible), at least we are not going to commit. And to the argumentation. The argumentation. I think there is something more important and that is that all the people who are here speak the same language and know what we are talking about. And for that, you have to immerse yourself in the website. That is the main thing. That is the main thing, and everything else pivots on that. And I think that would be the most important thing, to immerse ourselves in the website, the projections, in the creation of groups, to be coordinated in what is done in each territory, share information, and that each one can go as far as they can. There are people who are doing a lot of things. If we really aligned ourselves with the website, we would be talking about the same thing in all territories. That's quite something.

(Applause)

Participant 23:—Now I'll come with the agenda, they already know me, because here we have to schedule meetings, because otherwise, nobody comes to the meetings. So, what she was saying about her fear of coordination, of not stepping on each other's toes… I think a year from now is too long. We have to meet sooner, schedule the first month, the second month, but also recount the difficulties we have had in trying to do these things. And for that, we need to meet beforehand. And if I set a date, I mean, I'll take care of setting the date.

(Applause)

Participant 24:—To me, the issue she mentioned about material accessibility seems fundamental, because we are constantly speaking for them, with them, and we cannot be the first ones to work or intend to work and show accessibility and inclusion with material that is not accessible. (Addressing Susana) I don't know, Susana, if the accessibility office of Extremadura can help us with this task. I'm asking. Shall we negotiate it, right? We'll negotiate it, we'll negotiate it.

Ignacio Calderón:—It's what we're saying: if these are state-level issues, someone has to take responsibility or someone is.

Participant 25:—I offer to do it, but someone has to lend me a hand, for God's sake. Okay, thank you, Carmen. Regarding what kind of help. We need to meet initially and see what we can do. I was thinking about easy reading, I was thinking about sign language. I have experience in easy reading. So, well, we can see what we can contribute.

Ignacio Calderón:—I would also say that regarding what was said about languages, it's a matter of someone raising their hand and saying: 'I can get this document translated into English,' for example, right? Then send the proposal to ‘Quererla es crearla’.

Participant 26:—Well, I don't know if I'm going to change the subject a bit because I really liked the idea of us immersing ourselves in the website. And it's true that I know the website, but I haven't immersed myself in it. I don't know if there's a forum section or something similar on the website so we can get in touch. I, for example, am an education professional as well, besides being a mom, and sometimes I encounter many difficulties in my day-to-day life to implement certain activities or strategies. And, perhaps, it would be good to have a forum where we speak the same language, because I can ask questions online, but who knows who will answer me. But if we have a Quererla es Crear forum, where everyone speaks the same language as me, or at least should, I can make certain inquiries about how to solve this issue. For example, the topic of evaluation really overwhelms me. People who know me know this; it's a topic that worries me a lot. So, I can go into the forum and ask my question, and counselors or other professionals or educators like me can tell me: 'Look, I know that legislation is different from one community to another, but I've solved it this way,' 'I do this,' and I can then adapt to my legislation what is being done elsewhere.

Participant 27:—Raúl and I were talking about how the network of counselors is something very specific and that we should work on it, have it, commit to it. It would be interesting to expand it, so if you know any counselors who can join, we can set up an email.

Ignacio Calderón:—Note down there that an email will be set up for the team of counselors to support other counselors. And a network will be generated there.

Participant 28:—But I don't see it in the form of a forum, but in an online face-to-face format.

Ignacio Calderón:—I think the same. Proposing online meetings where doubts are resolved, things are explained, and so on. I think if the teaching staff wants something similar, they should generate that too. But that requires experience, I think. Setting up forums, first, technically, has an implication, and then, they have to be fed. Many times, forums, if they are not well fed and well monitored, in the end, they become a lot of work...

Participant 29:—I have 'Lucía's Room', as you know. We held talks and some interviews. I offer, through my channel, to share experiences from families, as there are quite a few, or if you want to join forces and hold talks or discuss something. There are also talks about psycho-educational reports. There are many things there that can be used, I think.

Ignacio Calderón:—Let's try to conclude, not open more fields, but narrow down, we are underlining what we decided.

Participant 30:—I wanted to say, regarding assessment, that psycho-educational assessment is a very traumatic stage that we have all gone through. A stress for children and families. So, besides asking them and allowing students to participate, I think it was mentioned in our workshop on psycho-educational assessment, the child's opinion is not taken into account at any time. Nor are they asked. What also cannot be is that they hand this over to you, they have spoken with you, they might completely change what you have said, the information you have given them, and you have to accept it and cannot refute it in any way.

Ignacio Calderón:—It's in the guide.

Participant 30:—Is it in the guide? Okay, okay, okay. And what about rectifying inaccurate data from the agency, I mean, from the data protection officer and all that, is that also included? At least, on the back cover in Madrid it says: 'You can exercise your right to object, rectify, or delete data, etc., by contacting the assigned data protection officer, in this case, from the Community of Madrid, and if not, the Data Protection Agency.' Because sometimes they put false information and you can't do anything about it. So, one way is through that, through data protection.

Participant 31:—I wanted to ask Susana, I don't want to miss out on the part about positive experiences. Because I truly believe that educational communities need to feel and see what can be done. And, so, I don't know how we could organize something operational. Because it's true that Nacho, while you were talking about recording within schools, it seems wonderful to me, but what I've encountered is that, in general, at least here, in the Community of Madrid, there's tremendous rigidity when it comes to any camera entering.

Ignacio Calderón:—The easiest thing is for each working group to find an ally or alliance at the university. Then, you can propose, 'Hey, look, a pilot experience with this guide in such-and-such a school.' Of course, you look for the school you think might be most aligned, the pilot experience is done, and at the end, it's recorded. It's actually not difficult and it's not an added task. It's using a guide and documenting it. Let's see, for example, right now I'm working with a guide in Almería and it started last week; by the end of the year, we'll have a video and we'll send it to UNESCO. Can that be done? Of course, it can be done, no problem with that. And I think it's a powerful material, and if we make it inter-territorial, it can be very powerful.

Well, set a date for the next meeting, which will be online, okay? End of November. By the last day of November, the working groups in each territory must be in place. Understood?

(People talking at the same time)

Participant 32 (Antón Fontao):— I'm super excited. Nobody knows what yesterday, today, and tomorrow mean to me. I have so much to thank so many people for that I don't, because tomorrow we have to go to the demonstration. I know there will be an inclusive education, and that.

(Applause)

Ignacio Calderón:— Is there any agreement that is not in bold that should be, or are we done? Are we done, yes? Well, wait, wait, wait, it's there.

Participant 22 (Susana):— Tomorrow we have a rally, I imagine everyone will go. A manifesto needs to be read, and we would like people to volunteer to read a paragraph each, representing families, students, professionals, all communities, and even all languages. Sonia, do you dare to do a paragraph in sign language? (Laughter) Maybe tomorrow there will be someone from the deaf community, maybe we can get them to come up. It would be very nice if it were the other way around, with the interpreter translating it into spoken language. Then, there will be testimonies. Well, that's so there's some substance, not just shouting.

Ignacio Calderón:—It has been planned that the first half hour will be silent, and during the second half hour, we will share short testimonials of about 1 minute each. So, we invite you all to bring your own testimony, if you wish, you can read it and share it. Keep them brief, though. I think it will be important and valuable, not only to read the manifesto but also to hear people's testimonies. Perhaps, we could also make space in these testimonies for optimism, for the good things that have happened to us when we have enjoyed school, how we have experienced inclusive education even in this exclusionary school. So, let's think a bit about what we can share tomorrow and let everyone get involved in sharing something, so that the microphone is never idle.

Luz Mojtar:—We will bold Jesus's proposal, which Nacho and I will implement, as will Tere and Floren. So, are more teachers signing up to mark this, right? We'll mark it. Okay, okay.

Ignacio Calderón:—Well, are we ready? What a pleasure, what a marvel, and we'll see you tomorrow! Congratulations, well done. Thank you!

(Everyone applauds and thanks.)