Conversations between students, families, professionals, management teams, researchers, and policymakers about the schools we have and how to make them for everyone
During the Tuesdays of May and June 2020, a series of Conversations about the (inclusive) school were held, shared on social media through the Education, Diversity and Inequality page on Facebook or in the Conversations about the (inclusive) school playlist on YouTube profile of Ignacio Calderón Almendros.
. These conversations aimed to be a space to publicly reflect on the reality we experience in our schools and to envision the school we desire. The sessions were recorded and disseminated on social media, and also used for pedagogical research purposes. More than 200 people registered for the conversations; therefore, the meetings were operationally divided by groups. First, families; then, students, education professionals, researchers, management teams, and representatives of the main political parties in Parliament. Although meetings were organized by groups, the idea was for all registered participants to attend the other debates, and citizens were invited to follow and comment on them on social media. The act of listening was essential for the entire process.
As a result of all this, the recorded sessions remain for reflection and analysis, and are already being used for teacher training processes, with tens of thousands of views. Furthermore, from these meetings, a document was born that aims to be useful for the parliamentary debate on the 2020 Education Law Project in Spain. The text, available for free download, is Análisis y propuestas para una nueva Ley Educativa. Conversaciones de la ciudadanía sobre la escuela inclusiva (Octaedro, 2020).
Videos of the conversations
Families' experiences in schools. Between wanting and being able to
The school we have and the one we want. Students speak
Working in a school that must be for all citizens. The professionals' perspective
Educational research and inclusive education. From what we know to what we do
Leading teams to build inclusive schools. Difficulties, achievements, and challenges
Nacho Calderón - N.C.: — Well, the meeting is now recording. Welcome, everyone. First of all, I want to thank you for being here today, for joining us in these conversations, and for continuing this extensive discussion among all of us who are part of the educational community.
A couple of procedural matters: first, the session is being recorded, as has already been announced, and it will be shared on social media and used later in the research project within which it is framed.
That, on the one hand.
On the other, the purpose of this meeting is to try to discuss the need to talk about the school we have, what we would like it to be, and how we can make the project of creating inclusive schools a reality.
Today's session follows many others, all of them very interesting, with students, families, teachers, and other professionals, and researchers. Today it's the turn of a group I'm very eager to talk to and from whom I expect to learn a lot: school principals who are driving inclusion. Today's topic is leading teams to build inclusive schools, the difficulties and challenges in achieving this.
I recall some of the sessions where, mainly families, but also teachers, spoke about the importance of management teams in building these inclusive school projects. Today we have a fantastic opportunity, not so much to present each of our school projects, because there isn't time for that, but to try to start a conversation among ourselves, to see what you have learned from your experience.
I think it's clear to everyone that a school is never entirely inclusive and always has a path ahead. The goal is for you, who have the experience and track record in all of this, to help the rest of us understand the difficulties, achievements, and challenges you have faced over the years.
So, the first thing to say is that there will be someone monitoring the chat, it's Luz, a colleague from the team. She will be attentive in case someone who is not part of the teaching group, who are school principals, wants to ask a question, and to the best of our ability, we will try to bring them into the discussion.
We will start with very brief interventions. I indicated in the emails that we should try to keep them to three minutes. It's not about presenting the project, but about what we have learned. They have already selected some of those things they have learned, and we are all ears right now, so I will take my turn, I will take the floor, and we will begin.
Whoever feels like it can start, so go ahead. We are all ears. I see we are all very disciplined.
Norma Albeira:—Hello, good morning to some, good afternoon to others. Good morning for me. Well, I'm Norma, I'm from Entre Ríos, Argentina, principal of the Madre de Calcuta school, and for 19 years we have been building our educational project on the foundation of inclusive education. It has been a very winding road, and we started it with a lot of uncertainty, but today we continue to think about the idea of what kind of school we want, where we start, and well, I think the first thing we did was let go of certainties because in each child's process there was so much uniqueness that looking at them from only one perspective made it difficult to dispel prejudices. We realized that they limited the possibilities that the children and young people had and, on the other hand, prevented us from seeing opportunities. Something we do every day is celebrate that presence in our schools, value that presence, and make that life visible because in the past it was not seen.
Where did we have to start? In the first place, by shifting our focus away from diagnostic criteria. Most of the time, they categorize students and could address their educational needs through the academic proposals we offered. We had to learn to work as a team. This idea of 'each teacher with their own little book' didn't work for us; we had to be looking at a common goal and allow other perspectives into the classroom through interdisciplinary teams, families, our own teachers, and well.
And to train ourselves in new ways of learning and conceiving education and classroom work. What we didn't know, we had to go out and find it and identify it, and then, once identified, minimize the learning barriers our children had. To make that curriculum possible, an interactive social life within the school also had to start within the classrooms. Among other things, through the work of the teacher with those children. Well, all of this leads us to question that we have to transform our practice, that it wouldn't be easy, and that it is difficult even today, when we know that processes of denaturalization are not simple and are deeply ingrained.
Another thing we learned and continue to learn is what values the school conceived from this perspective brought us: acceptance, being more respectful of life, of others' ways of life, a sense of belonging. If this student is mine and they come to my school so that I can bring them closer to that culture, so they can have greater participation in the curriculum, which is sometimes so cumbersome.
We learned that we were part of a constant school metamorphosis and that, well, when we thought we had learned something, it was already unlearned. We learned rhythms, particularities, to look at realities without judging. And, well, that we will continue to navigate many tensions because there are those who consider that this is not the right proposal. We learned that this is possible if we want the project and if we have the will, if we have commitment, a lot of responsibility to be able to have a good attitude and concrete actions to be able to intervene in the lives of these children. That is more or less what I have been doing in our school for 19 years.
N.C.Thank you very much, Norma. How many years have you been working on this project?
Norma Albeira:—In our school, 19 years.
N.C.:—19 years. Although it is not the time to discuss school projects, it would be fantastic if you would like to share them with the research team. If so, you can send them to my email address, so that we can also learn from all your experience.
Thank you very much, Norma. Listening to you, I remembered the words of a mother who, a bit desperately, told me recently that she doesn't want any more theory. She doesn't want the theory of inclusion anymore; what she wants are facts. So I would like us to try to focus all the interventions a bit. You are taking them where you think you should take them, but trying to respond to things that family members, students, professionals, and researchers have told us before. May it serve to think about an inclusive school.
Thank you very much, Norma, for your intervention.
Rosa Llorente García.:—If you wish, I will continue. Good afternoon and thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be able to participate in this forum, which will surely be very enriching.
I will share with you a bit about the learnings and challenges of our transformation process.
N.C.:—What is your school?
Rosa Llorente García.:—It is a public infant and primary school in Zaragoza, located in a neighborhood that enrolls a population of Roma ethnicity, second-generation immigrants, and a significant population facing vulnerability. A public school that, at one point, welcomed the population from the working-class neighborhood and, due to the massive enrollment of the Roma population, became a 100% Roma school, which later welcomed the arriving immigrant population.
Our story begins in 2002-2003, facing a severe general crisis due to a 95% school failure rate among students, high conflict, opposing views and paths between families and schools, and significant tension.
The first lesson we teachers who wanted to change learned was to transform the culture of complaint into a growth mindset and raise our own expectations. That was the turning point to believe that it was possible to transform such a critical reality we were facing: raising our expectations, based on training within a learning community. We are not their learning community per se, but the philosophy of learning communities has inspired us to achieve the participation of the educational community. From there, we began a very complex journey.
The lesson we have learned in our center is, first, to be clear about where we want to go, and what was very clear to us was that we wanted to become an inclusive center where all children learned and where families valued the importance of school. To utilize the skills and knowledge of the entire teaching staff.
A very important lesson we have learned in our center is to transform the capacities, potential, and skills of each person, each teacher, each family, each member of the educational community for the common good, a very important exercise in collective intelligence as well. We have developed a collective language, and that shared language is based on very powerful training, because for there to be innovation and inclusion, there must be training for the entire teaching staff, but training that translates into concrete courses of action, because often training remains just that, nothing, and does not manage to transform realities.
The leadership model is also very important. In our center, we have opted for appreciative leadership, which is based on people's potential and on problems that become learning opportunities. And very importantly, also, building a school culture shared by the entire educational community. In our case, we initiated a social transformation project, because school is a very powerful element of social transformation, and we have managed to have the school transform the neighborhood we are involved in and transform families. It is a very important capacity that school has. We have achieved this through fundamental identifying characteristics, which are the commitment and involvement of all agents in the educational community.
Learning is very important in the active participation of all agents in the educational community. We are an open school where multiple activities are organized in which everyone participates at the same level. The voice of families carries more weight, perhaps, than that of teachers, and much emphasis has been placed on that participation.
Innovation, evidently, has been fundamental, as has creativity. So, with all this, something very important we have learned is that together we can grow. The teaching team has acted as a driving force for change.
We in the center access through a service commission, for which you go through a selection process; you know which center you are coming to, but when you arrive, the center is still much more complex than you imagined. Then, there are a series of characteristics and identifying traits in teachers that work and that are passion, ethics, humanism, positive psychology, commitment, perseverance, never giving up, even though the difficulties are sometimes insurmountable, although in the end they are. High expectations, the capacity for self-criticism, the capacity for work, individual work and collaborative work, innovation, and creativity. And yes, we have learned that nothing is more limiting than low expectations.
Broadly speaking, I have created a broad overview of what we have learned and faced in our process of transformation towards a more inclusive school.
N.C.:—Thank you very much for your contribution, Rosa. We move on to Marta, I have it noted down. If you see that I am mistaken in the order because I have skipped someone, please tell me.
Marta Cebrián:—I will try to define our trajectory as quickly and clearly as possible. We are a center that was created from a perspective already focused, from the outset, on the inclusion of students, although paradoxically, looking back, we are part of a totally exclusionary schooling model when what we want is the inclusion of our students. Due to the current situation and the social uproar surrounding special education, we recognize that we are in a very difficult struggle that puts us in the position of how a special education center can fight for its own disappearance, but we firmly believe in this idea because the foundation of our project is that we talk about people and their rights and that no system should limit or restrict them in any way.
The basis of the entire inclusive project we are undertaking is to focus on people, on each of our students, on their families, and, as a mother rightly said in the conversation with families, to talk about individualized plans and not adapted plans, with which we completely agree.
In our transformation process, we are working on developing a series of plans that allow for this individualization in the teaching-learning processes of each of our students. Among the center's achievements, and I think it's very important, as Rosa said, is that it is a solid project. In this regard, even though professionals may change due to interim positions and staff mobility, the same consolidated idea is transmitted: that we want the best for our students, and we know that the best is in a totally inclusive context.
Every year we try to reinforce all our ideas by participating in training, in different experiences, in national forums, and with other pioneering centers in this regard. There is a great team behind us that leads this practice and also allows us to bring out the best in each of the professionals. We also consider this a very important achievement in this entire process.Regarding difficulties, well, all of them and more, because nobody said it would be easy, but for us, we also need them to keep improving, to confirm what we want and what we don't want. To fight for the rights of our students, not because they are our students, but because Sustainable Development Goal 4 recognizes it, the constitution recognizes it, the Convention on the Rights of the Child recognizes it. Therefore, I think it's important to focus on the person as a unique being, from their capacity and their strengths, which are many. Limitations have already been imposed on them for many years, and we must move away from that way of working.
Our project is based on the dimensions of quality of life. They have opened up a world for us when it comes to developing these individualized plans because they allow those with greater needs, who will not be able to excel in curricular content, to excel in other fundamental areas of life, even more fundamental than academic ones. Families are a significant part of our project. Families trust the center completely. We also work on this, so that they feel that affection, that trust. In the end, a very close and beautiful relationship is created to build this entire system.
Challenges it poses, many open up beneath our feet. The main one, the community. We believe that the school and its practices are nothing if they are not contextualized within the community framework. Our role must be to provide strategies and tools to all students for their better development in the community, because they are part of it and they need to know it and use it. All our practices revolve around this. We are a center with completely open doors, day after day, for students, teachers, families, neighbors, acquaintances, strangers to enter, but also to go out, to go out into the community, to its resources, to experience and use them as part of that community that we are.
Finally, as a center, we would like to highlight the great challenge of educational policies. We feel the need to also fight for policies that align with this discourse and that do not just remain as what families express: a theory that then becomes blurred with practices that do not materialize. We believe that we must promote a restructuring of the current education system and opt for a system that is the same for everyone, with the immense variety of resources that each person will need, regardless of their needs or disability. Yes, a single base center could be the mainstream school, to give it a name, but the school, in general, not the only school that should exist. Therefore, as professionals, we must go beyond our functions, also incorporating that responsibility with the Administration, as a mother said. That mother has impacted me, honestly, because she said very interesting things, like uprooting the education system to be able to recreate it. I find it very interesting and it has caught my attention. Thank you very much.
N.C.:—Thank you very much, Marta. Marina Sampietro has the floor.
Marina Sampietro Gómez:—First, we thank Amalia, from Plena Inclusión, for proposing us for this conversation, which we find fantastic, for giving us this opportunity.
The first thing I want to say is that our management team is new. This long journey that we hear about from others, we will begin in July, but it is true that the center has a long history in inclusion, or at least in trying to move in that direction.
So I will try to be brief and go point by point. Regarding the difficulties that, in this regard, we as a management team are encountering and have encountered, it is demonstrating the need for change to people who do not see it as necessary; that is very difficult. Changing that perspective is not in our hands, but, at least, it gives us strength to motivate. In a way, that is what we try to do. Beliefs are very difficult to change. The fear of the different, the unknown, the routine when one becomes comfortable. Regarding the mobility of people in public schools that you mentioned earlier, in our center, half of the people change every year. That is also a quite complicated handicap.
The perspective present in people from all educational sectors, from those who think that if there is a problem, it is always someone else's fault. This very Spanish culture of blame, of complaining, of not moving forward, which often makes it so difficult for us to propose solutions. We have also encountered this.Economic decisions are often educational. That struggle that Marta also points to. And then, not moving forward, wanting to disguise fear as prudence, because I prefer to be imprudent, honestly, than to be afraid. I'll fix it later, but sometimes there are certain things you don't do out of fear. These are the handicaps in a very general way.
As for the achievements we have made, since the center has been on this journey, with shared leadership, it is that there are motivated people. Small actions have been working, little by little. We focus on that, on that positivity that Rosa was pointing to earlier. Inclusion is breathed within. There are joint entities. A school for everyone is sought, which we must all build together.
This morning, all the conversations have been brutal, they have brought out a lot of incredible things, but I remember Estefani, from Peru, in the research conversation, who said that all stakeholders should be listened to in order to build the concept of inclusion, together, to act upon it. That it was a long-term project. This is an innovation plan, which is what we need now. We have an inclusive innovation plan and we use it to make this last, regardless of the people who pass through the center. So, you are leaving a mark. It is an experience of shared responsibility, of joint construction, as we are doing. Promoting horizontal participation processes to make decisions. Commissions in which there are spokespersons from all sectors: students, families, teachers, non-teaching staff, management team, and in all these processes we encourage the participation of students with disabilities, changing the deficit-based model for one based on coexistence.
We have learned these models from Plena Inclusión. We have had pilot programs for inclusive parents, with Jean Piaget, which is with Marta, and now we are working with the Universal Design for Learning (UDL), training ourselves in it. Alliances with other centers and entities that have opened up perspectives for us in our progress make great things possible, as I have already said. With Plena Inclusión, the neighborhood association which is very involved in the center, the surrounding public educational centers. Those alliances. With the public early childhood education center, the secondary school, and then, the Vocational Training Center. We have invented the educational space and we will gradually coordinate and do joint activities that include not only the children within the school.
Another achievement is to go beyond our school, to think more about the whole, as I said before, and for the common good. It is crucial to detect strengths in all sectors, including those that often go unnoticed. It is complicated, but everyone has strengths; obviously, we have to start from that. Otherwise, we don't move forward. Inviting people to put those strengths at the service of the school and increasing the frequency of children's council meetings is fundamental. Before, we had one meeting per term, and this year we had one every month due to COVID. Afterwards, we skipped two and just had the closing one, which we've already posted.
Providing transparency in all processes, I think, is also very important because it builds trust. If people know what's going on, they are not afraid. This is one of the things we try to do as a leadership team. Then, regarding challenges, it's about offering a vision, detecting barriers, and how to overcome them. The COVID situation itself, suddenly, an internet radio station emerged, which already had a seed and has now blossomed. Everyone who wanted and could participate has done so, and an art festival also emerged, with participation not only from our community. We have started to undertake competency-based tasks that were not done before.
It is an opportunity, personal transformation for teachers and non-teaching staff, and this is also a challenge we face now. Change requires personal transformation of perspective, attitude, and reflection, and this, without a doubt, is the biggest challenge of all. We know it's slow, but we are working on it.
Another thing, and this last point I just made, is the biggest challenge for you. Yes, I think so. This is a mainstream school, designated as a preferred school for autism. I don't like to say we have a 'trampoline classroom,' and we believe this is the biggest challenge. Changing that shift in perspective is what I mentioned before. Given the experiences we've acquired, it's very difficult to approach. You can't change how a person thinks, but you can add a grain, another grain, and with small actions, positively influence.
So, some people will never change, but if you are in this system, well, this systemic boom, if you are in this system, you know you have to go along with it, so to speak. A farm won't be there where we won't reach because there have to be actors, all kinds of thoughts in the world, and it's enriching.
Then, another thing is to listen to everyone, coordinated, following a democratic spirit. We try to do this, as we've said before, with all sectors involved, making everyone a participant in everything and ensuring that, at least, their opinions and ideas are heard.
Then, another great challenge is to change the way of teaching. Almost everything at the classroom level: presenting as challenges what others see as insurmountable difficulties. 'This is impossible' has been said many times; we lack training, this obligation is that we have to train ourselves, and it's no longer about quantity, but quality.
Our millions of resources, the universal learning document, the multilevel curriculum, competency-based tasks, there are millions of things and you don't need to be many in the center to contribute, help us, and coordinate. So, instead of seeing it as 'oh no, they didn't arrive, I'll jump on the bandwagon and together we'll achieve this,' no, on the other hand, something that seems very important to us is that we must continue the fight because we are one, even though there is a fantastic law that in theory is wonderful for inclusion, we must continue to insist day by day and be clear that it is a fight and that it is daily and must be so because it is our responsibility and our ethical commitment, our professional ethics, we should talk about and appeal to professional ethics.
And then, as a final challenge, continue establishing ties with entities, with the neighborhood, with the environment, to learn with and in the environment, but also with the university so that there is research in the school. We are with the Hipatia program to be able to experiment with it, to be able to advance. The excuse of not having training, 'I can't do it for them,' I've already said it, it's no use. It's not that we have a lot of people around who are willing to help us with these things through pilots and collaborations, so we don't want this discourse to be a bit obsolete. So, it's not comfortable to say 'so many people,' as someone recently said, 'everything,' but rather to have a good teacher, a good mentor, and when they are, let's see, and it's not a matter of luck, then not being in a good school shouldn't be a matter of luck, and we all have to take responsibility for that.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Marina. All the interventions are very interesting. María, you have the floor.
María Adela Camacho:— Thank you very much for this space. I speak from my daughter, from a town in Málaga, and also from an institute. I think it's a somewhat different reality to talk about inclusion from an institute, because it's strange. I don't know why, when we all have students with different abilities, and we all have to respond to them.
We started by reflecting on the right to learn, the right to learn, which I believe is the foundation. Then we saw that learning could happen through spaces, through methodology, through resources, through attention to all students, through the very organization of the center. We started little by little, but we wanted a center where, from the beginning, everyone felt part of it.
We pay a lot, a lot of attention to any detail. What matters most to us is that our students become happy young people in themselves tomorrow. That's why we treat all of them with empathy, based on neuroeducation principles, with a lot of patience to be able to understand each other, both them with us and with each other, with a lot of active listening and full attention. We try to work on mindfulness with the different boys and girls, and especially through competency-based tasks, which is very important for us because we see that inclusion within a secondary school is also due to competency-based work. We already work on teamwork, collaborative work, cooperative work, everything. All our documents, from the management project to the latest center document, are all in line with this inclusive work.
Our own leadership proposal is based on inclusive models. In trying, well, in this case I based myself, and it's a personal matter, being the director, I based myself on Coral Elizondo who had already worked on shared leadership and inclusion in school documents. Through what I learned from reading her work, I created a project, a school project that is shared by everyone, obviously, by the entire educational community. For us it is very important, therefore, starting from the very organization of the school, the departments, the technical team, we have equality officers. It is a department of coexistence and coeducation, in order to address even the slightest symptom, you know, that we might overlook a student who cannot be attended to according to their capacity.
We are also working, we are saying from, from the school itself, we wanted to create identifying characteristics, and these are identifying characteristics for us. We want when a person enters the school, to see that school as part of them, from the very smells to what they see, through their senses. So, well, we pay a lot of attention to spaces that are differential, flexible, and open spaces, and we strive to project a friendly, clean, warm, and very welcoming image. The entire school is involved in the decoration, in the day-to-day, and in the organization of the school, with these identifying characteristics based on respect for all students.
That is why we are also working on personalized attention. Everything that is done within a classroom goes outside the classroom, what is shared with the entire educational community, like a kind of showcase of what is being done. I don't know, it's like trying to involve everyone, every visitor, in what is ours. For this, light, color, and sensations are important; we all try to ensure that it's not the only thing. In fact, we try to create spaces, for example, for common knowledge, which is one of the many things that has already been discussed here by previous colleagues, where each group of teachers gets involved in sharing their own experiences. All the best in transversal knowledge we have discussed from the POA, from paths of emotions, coexistence, equity, even teacher training which is very important and must be managed by the technical team itself in promoting new technologies, new communication, all of this to create dynamic, emotional, and creative spaces for the students. Which for us, we are saying, is perhaps the most important thing.To this end, we rely on methodologies that, of course, must be based on collaborative work and very active techniques. These include project-based learning, learning problems, services, flipped classrooms, and gamification, which is visual. We believe it is essential for all students to acquire what, in our opinion, will be useful to them later. The most important thing for us, for example, is to start from what they can learn to do, rather than what they already know from the beginning. We try, as you have also mentioned before, to incorporate universal design for learning, UDL.
Regarding the phrase, "if you are not capable, I will remove you from the classroom," we ensure that all learning happens within the classroom. Teachers remain in the classroom, and when the need arises to support someone who may not be following the teaching-learning process in a standard way, we bring in two support teachers. They work alongside the specialist teacher within the classroom. To achieve this, it is crucial to pay attention to these students. For example, we try to have peer mentors, who are students who can assist other classmates for various reasons. Here, inclusion goes beyond simply considering a student with different abilities. We are talking about inclusion in a broad sense, encompassing students who feel lonely, who come from other countries, or who do not master the language. We face a wide variety of cases for which we want to offer solutions through the use of student helpers. These can emotionally support others who are feeling alone or withdrawn, which could prevent them from continuing with their teaching-learning process.
In summary, what we do is try to maintain an open school. We do not want to be isolated teachers; we aspire to be archipelago teachers, all united in learning. To achieve this, we always begin with a welcome for both the teaching staff and the students to the new center, and with an initial assessment that is truly inclusive, which I believe is where we should all start, from a well-structured initial assessment.
— N.C.—Cristóbal has the floor.
Cristóbal Calero:—Good afternoon, and thank you very much for the opportunity to be here learning and sharing. I belong to the Spanish Foundation. I worked in the management of the Cardenal Espinola school in Madrid and am currently with the foundation, which manages 15 schools in different cities with very diverse situations.
From my experience as a manager, I can offer my perspective without repeating the wonderful ideas we have already heard, which make one want to move to Zaragoza or Mijas. My school is located in the Chamartín neighborhood, one of the most privileged in Madrid and, therefore, in all of Spain. It might seem that we do not face difficulties. However, we encountered the first dilemma: determining if we were truly a successful school and what defined that success.
We faced many dilemmas about when a student truly succeeds or if our school was achieving good results academically. We are a school that goes from two to eighteen years old. We realized that we did not have a values problem. Our staff has extraordinary dedication and great sensitivity towards the disadvantaged, with a strong desire to contribute to the social function of education.
Despite this, we continually fell into the same dilemmas. We thought we were doing well because we obtained good results in the university entrance exams and our students chose engineering degrees. However, we faced the dilemma of what to do with students who learn differently or who face behavioral difficulties.
We came to the conclusion that we were failing in our self-assessment. Our approach did not allow many of our students with difficulties to fully participate in the educational experience. Often, these students ended up transferring to smaller schools or those with more resources.
We also realized that we did not have a problem with effort or work capacity. Our team was competent and worked excellently, but our paradigm was wrong. We did not have enough impact on people's lives, not even on students who fit a more traditional model.
We set out to break that dynamic related to our beliefs. Responding to the dilemma of self-examination, we decided to look at things from another perspective. We asked ourselves what people who came to apply for a place thought of us, especially those parents of children with difficulties such as dyslexia, who were afraid to tell us their problems for fear of the consequences.
We began to see ourselves in a different way, evaluating ourselves through the comments of mothers and fathers. We realized that we were better prepared to change paradigms and move our focus towards our stated values, with more depth and rigor. When we made that decision, we discovered that the educational community was willing to accompany us, despite some departures.
This change was not about whether families agreed or whether students accepted diversity. It was about whether we were willing to take that step and assume that leadership. When families saw that we were leading this movement, they placed their trust in us, even in times of difficulty.
One of the biggest challenges has been dealing with the education system itself, which is also self-absorbed in its own evaluations and ways of operating. This includes managing relationships with the EOEP (Educational and Psychopedagogical Guidance Teams) and adapting to a system and curriculum that do not always align with our beliefs.
We realized that we were responsible for the educational experience of our students and their families. This was not just about students studying because their families demanded it or about solving individual student problems, but about recognizing our responsibility for their well-being.
This process led us to a deeper understanding of how we operated and how we could change aspects where we were not effective. We began to question how we educate and how we learn, based on evidence and continuous reflection.
Finally, we realized that we didn't need to change our values, but rather to reclaim them and put them back at the center of our educational culture. This has allowed us to be more human, more approachable, kinder, and more effective in our transition towards an authenticity and humanism that we want at the heart of our educational experience.
N.C.:—Thank you very much. Guadalupe has the floor.
Guadalupe Saldaña:—Hello, can you hear me? Hello, hello everyone. I live in Mexico City and I want to share the following. I will try to express it in relation to the difficulties, achievements, and challenges. At the beginning of the session, Nacho asked a question: what have we learned? From there, I want to make my contribution.
In the first person, I have learned to know myself and also to know ourselves as a group. I have been a principal at this school for about five years, and during this time, we have learned to play with the dimensions of truth. This involves motivating ourselves, sometimes demotivating ourselves, and then motivating ourselves again, entering a constant cycle. I mention this because, at first, I started from the idea that, even though we are in Mexico City, there are boroughs with very different school cultures, even within the same borough.
When I arrived at this school, I understood that we must always start by knowing the community you are joining and giving them back their voice and perspective. This is crucial because we are situated between the authorities and regulations. Furthermore, sometimes, due to the hierarchical system, it seems that only teachers have a voice, but it is also crucial to build and flexibilize regulations.
I believe the most important thing is to observe what the team is like and build from there. This can be a challenge because we are all different. However, what allows us to move forward is to bring school council spaces to life. I mean giving a voice to all participants, not just teachers, but also parents and children. It is crucial to listen to them first and, from there, start mobilizing. There are no fixed recipes; it's about finding the small steps in each school culture that guide you to build a common project.
Here in Mexico City, it is often the principals who carry out the continuous school improvement program. Previously, the principal built the project alone, but now we recognize that the project is built together. We have given a voice to everyone and recognized existing realities.
Once you learn, along with your fellow teachers and your team, to give voice to this project and recognize that it comes from what you experience in the classrooms and the support you provide, that becomes fundamental. Another subtle issue is that we must be cautious. Sometimes, as mentioned in previous sessions, we start blaming each other, but we must support the processes. Sometimes, the teacher becomes the focus of all complaints: from parents, from the principal, from the supervisor.
I started from the idea that it is vital to provide support and break many of these beliefs and labels. As a principal, you are often positioned as someone who supervises and judges. However, it is important to provide empathetic support where you recognize the voice of others. Furthermore, it is fundamental that the council is not disconnected from what we have here, meaning finding synergies and learning from mistakes.
Regarding achievements, if we look at the council space that is activated from these perspectives, I think we can give meaning to inclusive education and inclusive coexistence. As challenges, we need to continue making visible what we normalize because, when you are immersed, you stop seeing important things in this project or team vision. Above all, it is crucial to consolidate teamwork in schools to form true learning communities.
Finally, we must continue fighting to create projects with the team vision you have mentioned, but also to create alliances. Sometimes, we realize that, even though we have achieved great things, we find out from new families or from the siblings of our students that, when they move on to primary school, these children are made invisible. That leaves you with pain, a challenge. Therefore, I think it is important to generate alliances with nearby schools or with those where you know your children go, because it seems that the work done is undone.
Another challenge we have, and with this I will close, is that sometimes we stop looking at the fact that, in addition to the teams of teachers, principals, and supervisors, the educational support staff also has a valuable perspective on this project. We have integrated them, but we are in this stage of also building that team, looking at what they have to tell us, and the relationships that are being formed with the children, with us, and with the rest of the team. With these mistakes and learnings, this is what I wanted to share with you today: the importance of forming teams, active listening, and shared leadership.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Guadalupe. Denise has the floor.
Denise Mosscheti:—Hello, how are you? Good afternoon. Here in Argentina, I am from the province of Buenos Aires, specifically from a relatively small city called Bahía Blanca, in the south of the province. First, it is a pleasure to share this moment with so many colleagues from so many places, and especially, from Spain.
Let me tell you a bit about myself: I am the principal of Secondary School 24, a public school in the province, and I have been in this management role for 9 years. It is a very small school that started with about 80 students and today we have 300. We have progressed very gradually, leading, as part of today's topic, the role and leadership of management teams. I have the firm conviction that inclusive education is possible.
It has been a gradual process of team building. I believe the key is to incorporate year after year not only teaching staff, but also external professionals and different teams that support this vision. Our main goal is inclusive education.
In the nine years we have been working, one of the strengths we have built is the creation of a broad outlook and acceptance towards others. Here, in different parts of Argentina, and in my experience in the city, this perspective is quite stagnant. At first, the first thing we heard from the teaching staff was 'I don't know how to do it.' We transformed it into 'how can I do it?' This change in perspective has been a guiding principle throughout all the years.
Teacher training has been fundamental. It has allowed us to open new perspectives and bring theory into practice within the classroom. Being present and connecting allows teachers, convinced that everyone can learn, to take risks. We ask ourselves what the condition is for taking these risks, and the answer is daring to deconstruct oneself, to think about practice from a flexible and open place.
Some colleagues mention that teachers tend to stick to their traditional methods. Our challenge has been to show them that there are many more ways to teach, ensuring that attention reaches everyone. We come from a homogeneous education, but paradigms are changing. Today, for example, a teacher entering the school faces the challenge of how they can reinvent themselves to attend to all students. This implies guaranteeing not only their presence, but also their active participation and learning.
This effort has been supported by families. Throughout the years, we have seen and heard how families navigate different educational centers without managing to enroll their children due to their learning difficulties. Our task has been to break down these barriers and show that learning is possible for everyone.
When students leave school happy, the success of our approach is evident. Continuous training has allowed us to grow from knowledge and understand how to teach in many ways. Silvana, who is with us today, has been a great participant in these training sessions. She has helped convey that there are many ways to teach a class.
Regarding weaknesses and challenges, we have begun to transform the belief that one can learn in multiple ways and that access to education must be diversified. This allows everyone the possibility for their learning to be tangible and effective, ensuring that our actions are not just talk, but are lived in the daily practice of the school.
Today we can say that, in our Secondary School 24 in Bahía Blanca, we face continuous challenges, but we transform them into real possibilities to make inclusive education not just a discourse, but a lived and effective practice.
I believe the most important thing is to learn from mistakes, because there is no learning without error. It is in those moments of error where we truly learn and can modify, change, adapt, and continue building.
Regarding the challenges, they are the same for everyone: to continue consolidating these teams, these visions, these practices, and to continue challenging the status quo. It is necessary to take risks and continue growing and learning from each mistake and each success. This is what I believe I can contribute from my experience and vision at Secondary School 24 in Bahía Blanca.
N.C.:—Thank you very much, Denise. You are taking notes, right? I think there is quite a bit of material here. Let's move on to Marta.
Ana María Mitoire:— Hello, good afternoon. From Argentina too, specifically from the interior of the province of Chaco, in the north of the country, I speak to you as the director of a special education school. I am very pleased to participate in these conversations that reflect much of what we are doing in different places. It is often believed that institutions in better locations provide a better education, but it is also thought that in more remote areas, educational quality decreases. I want to share an experience we are having in very vulnerable environments in the interior of our country, where we are promoting the inclusion of persons with disabilities.
Our school coordinates with four municipalities, each with fewer than 7,000 to 8,000 inhabitants. In these municipalities, we have seen very interesting changes thanks to the inclusive culture that has begun to be worked on not only in early childhood, primary, and secondary schools, but also in the community. This has allowed our students from all over the education system to share spaces, which was initially a challenge and today we consider it a strength.
We have managed to open up the regulations, which in Argentina, despite having many interesting laws, are rarely put into practice. We have built spaces to discuss these regulations because, although it is proclaimed that the education system is inclusive and that education is a right for all, we often find contradictory regulations from the Ministry of Education itself.
A concrete action I want to share is a showcase of inclusive practices that we started three years ago. We set up spaces where each teacher, from early childhood, primary, or secondary education, can explain how they tackled seemingly insurmountable difficulties. These experiences are presented in documents of no more than two pages, where each teacher recounts their experience. This has allowed other teachers, who perhaps were not convinced or had not made the necessary attitudinal change, to see that it is possible. It is a way of documenting practices, not as scientific evidence, but as proof that it is possible to change and adapt.
We organize these showcases in one of the four municipalities within a radius of 20 to 30 kilometers. In these meetings, teachers and some students share their experiences, and the rest of the community participates like at a fair. The first year it was half a day, then we had to extend it to a full day, and this year we were thinking of making it two days because more and more people want to share how they solve everyday problems.
Now we are trying to publish these experiences. This circulates through all the schools and is built with the support teacher for integration, whether it's one or two teachers who get together to tell a concrete experience. This is what has opened the way the most, beyond any other pedagogical or scientific intervention we have attempted.
The biggest challenge we have now is to be able to clearly document these processes to truly live shared leadership. It should be known that attention to diversity and inclusion are not solely within the realm of special education. Although here, that is still the primary focus, we believe this is our greatest challenge and something that all of us who work in special education must embrace. So, thank you very much for this space.
N.C.:— Thank you very much. Carmen has the floor.
Carmen Matés:—Hello, Nacho, I imagine you're referring to me. I'm Carmen Matés, director of an educational center in the Axarquía region. I have very poor reception, so I'm moving around the house because I'm in an area with very little coverage.
I am the director of an educational center that is a learning community. When we talk about inclusion, we realize that we still have a lot to do. It's true that we are based on the idea that we all build the school together, not just the teaching staff. However, one of the biggest difficulties we face is the change of teaching staff and the change in the conception of how many teachers view students. I don't think it's done with malice or intentionally, but out of ignorance. Listening to the interventions of students and families makes us empathize with the suffering behind it.
I question whether we must be doing something wrong, something we need to change and modify in the centers. We need a change in perspective towards the students, because when there is suffering behind these children, boys, girls, fathers, and mothers, we must be doing something wrong.
From the leadership teams, it's true that we have to consider that the key lies in attention to diversity, because we need to respond to them, but we can't do it alone. There isn't a team of teachers who believe in this, and it's sad to hear from families and children who say they depend on the luck of the teacher they get. In part, I share that perception, because we as a leadership team often have teaching staff who, although we can maintain a trained group, every year a new group arrives and we start from scratch again.
We look at the students and they are categorized, sent for guidance, and it seems like the student isn't yours, you don't believe in the student's capabilities. This transformation, I insist, is not about confronting the teaching staff, but about trying as a challenge to get them to change their perspective and recognize the possibilities of each family. There is a family behind them, there is suffering behind them.
I think that disseminating all these interventions from parents, mothers, students, and pupils is essential so that they are heard and so that, together, we can build a school that responds to all children, and that doesn't depend on the luck of the teacher you get. I have also heard as a principal that I am not capable with three years of experience to support a student who has just joined. It is sad to have to hear that as a mother, father, and as a principal of an educational center.
I won't go on any longer.
N.C.:—Thank you for your intervention, Marta. Now it's Leti's turn.
Leti López:—I am totally moved and happy to be sharing with so many experts on the subject and with so many groups. I love everything I have learned from previous meetings and from these. Thank you very much and congratulations also to the university for this important research. A hug to everyone. I am Betty from Guatemala, I am the founder of an association and executive director. We have been working on inclusive education for 15 years because I started with this when I couldn't find a suitable school for myself in my country, and then a school that I wanted for him; a school where acceptance reigned, where differences were respected and that built his self-esteem instead of destroying it, a school that adapted to his way of learning. Based on that, I started with "Frío del Sol".
I will start, perhaps, with the challenges because I believe that we inclusive schools have a double challenge, but we have to pave the way. That is also very conditioned, and the challenge of giving ourselves the opportunity to enter that wonderful experience of diversity is a challenge to adapt, to promote diversity, and then until the moment comes when it is something normal. This implies seeing the student as an individual being, starting from the fact that they are a human being, which is the most important thing. By seeing them as a human being to whom we have the opportunity to help them learn many things, then we see them as individual and unique, with their own challenges and their own goals, starting from different points, each of them, and respecting that I think is wonderful.
In addition to this challenge from the university, we have another one: we are also a school like any other. So, the challenge of adapting and appearing in education, and wanting to do it well, is why many of us here are now talking about the place and we like to learn about neuroeducation and other things because we want our school to also be at the forefront, like many, in developing human beings with critical thinking, with values, and who are happy, which is one of the most important things that I believe we all came into this world for.
What has worked for us and what we have learned is that, as many have done here, instead of pointing out differences, we celebrate them; celebrating individuality can be a beautiful thing. As we tell our children on the first day of class, we know that here there is every color, size, and flavor, and that is the first message. Children are very intelligent and adapt so quickly. Then, they learn sign language, or if he doesn't know how his little friend who can't see will manage, but we have it in our hands to make that as natural as possible. They are so intelligent that they just ask you if he can hear or not, it doesn't matter, and they invent their own signs and there is communication, and that is something precious.
Then, perhaps, as they also said, acceptance and empathy. I believe that putting yourself in someone else's shoes and working on empathy is so important, not only in the way of teaching but also with their emotions, how they are feeling and how their families are feeling. No one should be left out, and if possible, we should only focus on their health. Beyond that, sometimes it seems that with so much information we also complicate things a lot and we no longer know how to face some of the situations, but when we clear all that up, we can see the simpler things that yield results, practical answers. For example, so-and-so can't see, but he can hear, he can touch, and so we adapt to that and go to his learning days, and his classmates know that they are going to this. You can just tell him to offer him everything, but and then he will go with you wherever and explain what you are seeing in the video.
One of the achievements we didn't know inclusive education would bring us is that we are a school free from the famous bullying and mockery because one of the few rules we explain to students on their first day of class is that we celebrate diversity. Celebrating diversity, as you rightly said, I believe is accepting the many differences we each have and celebrating that there is no one else like you. So, when you do that, it becomes very natural for everyone, and no one is interested in mocking or pointing out "you are different," but rather is interested in helping. A culture of help has been created, and for me, it is precious to see that in the classrooms when children work at different paces, they have three options in our classrooms: you finish, but your classmates need help, you can choose to learn something interesting, go to the library, go to the game corner, or help someone else. The thing I love most is that most of them choose to help a classmate, and thus you are creating a new type of human being where everyone enriches each other, everyone learns, and within this diversity, we will have children with advanced intelligence.
Well, I want to finish then with the achievements. We are now open, as another colleague also said, to be multipliers of our experiences because to keep that to ourselves in a country where there are no inclusive schools and we are paving the way would be very selfish. We have to share and be agents of multiplication that it is possible. In the end, I believe that taking the time to rebuild children's self-esteem will allow them to learn much better. And in the end, as has been said in other conferences, we want to talk only about schools, not inclusive schools, just schools for everyone, happy schools, where students want to return the next day wondering what surprise their teacher will have for them this time.
N.C.:—Thank you very much for your intervention, Leti. Silvana has the floor.
Silvana Corso:—Hello, good afternoon. Thank you, Nacho, for giving me the opportunity again to contribute something to this discussion in relation to all the presentations. I don't want to be repetitive and I prefer to get straight to the point. In this call, I will focus on the role of the director because I find it fundamental. Beyond all that can be contributed, there is a matter of positioning in the role, and it is crucial to have the objective clear. When you have a leader, a director who is clear that rights are guaranteed in this school and there is no room for debate, even if it seems authoritarian, I am not going to allow a debate about whether a student can or cannot be here; it is a fact that everyone can be here. This makes matters clearer.
For me, the positioning and belief in the leadership role are fundamental and represent the big problem to face. Also, when one assumes management, fears come and the attempt to be liked while you are getting to know the terrain. Therefore, your discourse must be clear, leaving no room for debate. Teamwork is obviously fundamental, but with a clear objective, and that is unmovable.
The other challenge is knowing how to work as a team. The interpretation of regulations is crucial, as many have spoken about certain conditions and regulations that, although guaranteed, my colleagues from Argentina have commented that here progress has been made in regulations but not in concrete facts. The regulations contradict some resolutions. In that sense, I always state that I have to take into account the legal pyramid and the root. The law says that everyone goes to school, even if there are contradictory resolutions. I stick to the law and learn to read the regulations in favor of the children, not to protect my position. For me, this is fundamental.
Another issue I address as problems are the established discourses within schools. This also has to do with knowing the history of each school, the way of naming the other, the historical view of the school that says that in this town we have always done things a certain way. The fact that schools have historically worked more in isolation than in a network was the problem I had to face when trying to change the perspective towards the other. The first challenge I took on to be able to work on the established discourses, and with my goal clear, was to work with the teachers' school biographies. I want a change of perspective, I need to question why I say what I say, because surely my entire school history and my history with the other emerge there. That's why I worked in networks, I involved psychologists and psychopedagogues from the hospital with which we collaborate to help me carry out this work with the teachers.
Once we were able to enable dialogue, we began to construct discourses. You've already mentioned it, so I won't repeat it, but it's about permanent teacher training in context. In the school, we generate that space for permanent training and flexible school trajectories, based on Flavia Terigi's ideas in Argentina about thinking about personalized paths for each of our students. The issue of discourse returns; for example, these ways of naming have to do with illnesses that only appear in school. Being a man in school, being overage is a disease specific to school, they say. Outside of school, they don't exist. From that point of view, we started to work, insisting on this thread of breaking down ingrained discourses, opening space for everything.
Another great challenge is the social imaginary when one works in inclusion, because the fact that families and the school environment point to the inclusive school as a place that does not offer quality learning was also mentioned here. Breaking with that social imaginary so that the school is chosen by the community, and not the place where all those who have been rejected by other schools go, was fundamental for us. We made ourselves known, we articulated with the community, and after having worked historically with students who have faced repetition, failure, or have been rejected by other schools, today our school is the first choice in our seventh grade. That is our great achievement: breaking with that imaginary and making the community understand that there is no other option than the inclusive school, that this is truly enriching for the trajectory of each of your children. We believe it should be the opportunity, but for that we did a lot of work externally, a lot of noise to make known all that we were doing and the possibilities.
And if you allow me, I'll close with that. Other points are repeated based on what was said. It is fair to raise the problem of how to sustain inclusion now. That question was not raised, but it is also a constant restart. Building a school that works on inclusion lines is a school that is under permanent construction because there is no recipe. The experience in Chaco was very good, not in terms of recipes, but in thinking that with logic and common sense we can all find answers. The reality is that it starts over. I find myself at this point of having had beautiful experiences to share in a period when I am rebuilding a school.
This is my reality: the school that previously included students, today leaves them out due to lack of connectivity, lack of equipment, and hunger. I theorize: parents who are unemployed, going hungry, and coming to hand in assignments. The priority is the situation that is conditioning us. A child cannot learn today, as has been said in another sense: happiness is not within the school, and the context generates the conditions for others to learn. It is a context that highlights a student who learns in this environment, where the wind blows on their neck, and it affects some sectors more than others, because the pandemic does not recognize social classes and always particularly affects the most vulnerable.
So, I see a great opportunity in this moment of pandemic. Allow me to explain: analyzing the discourses or understanding who the problematic students are in the traditional school, I generally see it in my school, where sometimes it is the disruptive behavior of a student, the way they move or interrupt in the classroom, that requires them to be specially attended to. In virtuality, this behavior is not present, so that student stops being a problem and can also show all their learning possibilities. Thus, labeling someone as a "problem student" becomes a problem in itself. Dismantling that discourse based on the virtuality experience seems to me to be a unique opportunity.
On the other hand, today these "problem students" also help us dismantle the discourse and understand that yesterday's problems are today's problems, and that if we don't change our perspectives, they will continue to be problems in the future. This pandemic moment is critical, and if we think we will emerge from this better, that remains to be seen.
So, we must pause and analyze everything as we are discussing in this period to be able to consider the positive and the dramatic, to be able to truly create an inclusive school afterwards. The debate on evaluation is crucial because this is the moment to make a significant change. Today, the question is how to evaluate beyond a simple numerical grade that dictates whether a student can or cannot. This moment cannot just be a tool to get by and count progress, but it must generate a deep internal debate about how we can guarantee our students' learning. This is the question we usually ask ourselves in the classroom: do we believe that the tools we have allow us to ensure learning? This is a moment when, in Argentina, we are debating this because we think we have the whole year ahead of us, even though you are closing the cycle. We will be in confinement for a large part of the children's school journey.
N.C.:— I believe Silvana brings important issues to the table. For example, this last one she quickly mentions and which places us all in an interesting position. We could take advantage of a situation like the one we have, a radical situation that is putting us in a very difficult position, but which, on the other hand, is favoring some possibilities that did not exist two months ago.
The questioning of evaluation is probably a moment we should seize to truly fight for that school we are talking about, the inclusive school. Surely, a good action that could arise from this is, I don't know, a manifesto or a network effort, advocating for that school that is not so conditioned by grades and continuous evaluations.
Well, thank you very much. Carlos Sandoval has the floor, and with that, we will begin to close.
Carlos Sandoval:— Hello, good morning. Thank you very much for the opportunity to participate and tell you about my school. I have heard everything you are saying, and some interesting things you are discussing here have moved me, especially what is related to evaluation. I am against evaluations, especially in an inclusive school. If we talk about individuality, we must respect that individuality. I continue to fight in my country against the issue of evaluation as a blank slate. We are not externally evaluated every year, and I share this experience of my students because Fulanito's name comes up, and he cannot be evaluated like someone else. I am talking about a general secondary school, and these students we have often come from special education schools, but, for example, there is a school for deaf children where all their classmates are deaf. When they come to me at the secondary level, they have to interact with people who are not deaf. Okay, there are some students who are deaf and have not learned sign language, and that is a problem, and it is also a problem for transmitting knowledge.In another situation, students arrive with low vision, blind, with intellectual disabilities, autistic, and it is wonderful to see what happens when they connect with each other and can live, can dialogue, and can learn from them, which mainstream schools shy away from. We generate the philosophy of understanding the other from the perspective of the other's world. That is to say, if I learn braille, I am understanding the world of the blind person, but if I do not learn braille or if I do not learn sign language, it will be difficult for me to understand that student's world. Then, what about the parents too? Because I heard complaints from parents. Parents are also afraid of leaving their students in mainstream schools. There is also overprotection from parents, and I know this because I live it, but they also suffer. The parent suffers, and along with the student, the rejection from the school administration of other schools, the rejection from teachers because they believe they cannot work with them because they are not trained.
Then, what do you do as an administrator? As an administrator, you must generate strategies and spaces for these students to develop and work on their competencies. That is what my school offers now. For example, I was just listening to the teacher who is worried that there might be hunger in her space. Our school has a project called "full-time school." My students come in at 7 in the morning and leave at 5 in the afternoon. They know what it is like to interact with more than 300 children in a dining hall, everything that happens there, everything they transmit, everything they can experience. That is learning. The school learns, and that is a mistake we sometimes make: in special education schools, learning doesn't only happen in school; it happens at home, it happens on the street. So, we continue to live, and that is what happens in my school. As an administrator, if I were to leave, I would be content because I have left concrete spaces where students can live.
Lately, what the system has given me is a symphony orchestra, so where students with disabilities can join that orchestra and work remotely has also transformed their way of living, their way of thinking, and allows them to develop in other areas. What I have done as an administrator: manage spaces so they can develop freely. For example, here we have a system called CODE, which is for sports, so they can go to compete, to prepare, and to experience education in a more integral way, not just putting them in a classroom, not just listening, no, but also generating education in other areas. Very well, not with this.
N.C.:—Thank you very much, Carlos, for your intervention. There are no more interventions scheduled right now. We will open a very brief turn, between 5 and 10 minutes, in which we will try to make very concise interventions, after having heard everything that the other colleagues have said. I would be interested to know what has resonated with each of you, and in particular, I would like to know what we can offer that is of value to someone who is currently thinking about whether inclusive school is possible or not, what would need to be done, how I, as a teacher, principal, or administrator, could undertake that project.
For now, I leave the idea open for discussion. Open your microphones and begin, but very briefly.
Cristóbal Calero:—Well, I simply want to paraphrase my colleague Mercedes, who at one point, in one of those crazy moments we got into, told me a phrase that I will never forget and that has resonated with me during this time, especially in relation to changes in beliefs and the systemic imposition that this is a utopia. She told me: 'We did it because we didn't know it was impossible.' I think this is a key point for managers, for leaders, whatever we call them, for those who will guide teachers to another place. We have to break the idea that this is an ideological utopia; it is a real and not impossible issue.
José Luis Aguilar:—An important reflection that some have mentioned, but I believe this challenge we are posing to ourselves must be extended to all of society. There is no possibility of having an inclusive school if there isn't a society that considers itself inclusive. We can have a response where it is architecturally modified; I mean that the powers of defeat, the collectives, the carts, the streets are a disaster. An accessibility issue is being raised, but the appeal must be to society.With regard to the school itself, training was mentioned, but I think it is important, regarding teacher training, to go beyond the content.
The training must be developed and provide content for the tools so that each situation is new and catches the eye, because the only way to build is disabling and the only way for all children in situations of disability to be considered differently. As I have connectivity problems, what is the approach to repeating human rights? That is, attention to diversity is marked in the conquest of groups of people with disabilities. It is not a duty that the government simply says it includes, but rather that inclusion is a situation of collective acquisition of rights and we must advocate for those rights.
As labeled before, objectivities end up being swept away. We are faced with the issue of medical diagnoses as educational determinants. It doesn't serve us, but it is necessary, because sometimes the financiers and the schools... well.
N.C.:—Thank you very much, José Luis. I know that all of you have a lot to say, because you have fantastic work and experience, but we have very little time. Therefore, we must prioritize having more words, more people who want to comment.
Rosa Llorente:—To build an inclusive school that involves working from an appreciative inquiry approach, which allows us to maximize the positive potential of all members of the educational community, making cooperation the fundamental element. As an agent of change. It's about inquiring from a perspective that evaluates and respects others, always using dialogue as a communication tool.
I recently read the book 'Appreciative Inquiry' by Míriam Subirana, and I think it gave me a very interesting perspective for leading schools. It's an inclusive perspective.
Denise Moschetti:—I wanted to add to what we were just discussing about this moment of the pandemic. We always say that we are working on inclusion. I believe that today we are working as educators in the midst of this situation, and it's about other ways of making decisions. We are returning to making decisions that perhaps we already had, human ones, from another context. Amidst this complex simultaneity that involves displacement, as principals, we have to support teachers, families, and the students themselves.
Today we are with the students and families, and I think it's central because it will allow us to see that we can continue and restructure what's coming, which is in-person learning. Here in Argentina, we still have a long way to go before returning to classrooms. I believe we must build new information and try out new ways of connecting and transmitting, and I think that's key: to start thinking in these conversations. This time we can have with the children, families, and teachers is crucial at this moment.
N.C.:—Thank you very much. I was wondering how many of the leadership projects you've expressed here, over this time, are based on a rebellious person challenging a school system.
Miriam Adriana:— Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Miriam, from Bahía Blanca, Argentina. I wanted to say that, at this moment, there's an issue that I think is important to consider in the process of building the inclusive school, which is not only reinforcing issues related to academic accessibility or pedagogy, but also the need that many children and families have for their children to be integrated. And young people who, also from a social perspective, are not being taken into account, according to some family testimonies, during this confinement, they are isolated.
Yes, we are isolated due to the pandemic, but, on the other hand, they are even more isolated than they are in schools. It's useless to reinforce pedagogical aspects if, socially, children and young people are not even considered by their peers or by other families. Therefore, I think collaborative work with families with disabilities is necessary, but also with other families. That is, for the inclusive school to work collaboratively with other families to understand the situation of these young people or children, because otherwise, we are constantly reinforcing the pedagogical and forgetting that a person's life or life journey is not only about learning content, but also about encountering others.
I think this is also key to consider in the inclusive school. That's all.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Miriam. With your words, we will close. We have also been addressing the isolation within isolation, as you said.
In some cases, the effort to remain in school for children, young people, and families is such that, in some cases, this isolation has relaxed them. It's terrible what I'm saying, but I want to say that they have relaxed because they are resting from the effort they have to make to sustain themselves in a mainstream school. I don't always mean mainstream school when I speak of school, of course.
Go ahead, Silvana.
Silvana Corso:—In relation to this moment of the pandemic and the family, and returning to the topic of discourse, today we are asking families for a lot of support to sustain the children's schooling. Listening to families we didn't listen to before. And, in relation to students with learning difficulties, even more so. So, it seems to me that it is also an opportunity for schools to register the role of the family and how much they have supported this return process. That they continue to have that role.
Families contribute in relation to issues that have to do with the care of their children, but we never give them a voice to express how their children learn. We don't let them be participants in a real school project, where they can be heard for what they contribute to their children's learning. It is something that must be rescued upon return, so that families continue to have that role and we don't close the doors to them again and only call them to see when there are problems or they are referred for treatment. Thank you very much.
N.C.:—Thank you very much. I have to thank each of the words of the people who have spoken today. Also to those who have been listening and participating through the chat. There is much we would like to know about your experience. We have had this little time. I already told you that for us it would be great, if you feel like it, to share your school projects with us, so that we can learn more about your own experiences, beyond what these two hours have given us.
Topics have already come up that seem very important to me and that I believe many people will value. I would also say that the leadership that your schools are demonstrating should come from the school itself. There have been many interventions talking about the importance of leaving the school, of going beyond the school's borders. I believe that telling stories like your experiences builds another imaginary of school reality that allows many teachers and families to think about something they don't allow themselves to think about: living together, learning together. That by living and learning together, we are better.
I want to congratulate you and thank you for this time of conversation. We continue with everything. A hug.
In unison:— Thank you very much, it's a pleasure.
Challenging inequalities in school. Inclusive education on the political agenda
Nacho Calderón - N.C.:— We begin the session. Today, I want to welcome Maribel García López, Joan Mena Arca, Georgina Trías Gil, and Óscar Clavell López.
All of them are representatives, members of the Commission on Education and Vocational Training of the Congress of Deputies, and they have voluntarily and generously agreed to participate in this time of conversation, of talking among ourselves about the topic 'Challenging inequalities in school. Inclusive education on the political agenda.'
That has been the topic with which I invited them, and they represent different political forces, parliamentary groups. Maribel comes from the Socialist Parliamentary Group; Joan Mena comes from the confederal parliamentary group of Unidas Podemos-En Comú Podem-Galicia; Georgina Trías comes from the Vox Parliamentary Group, and Óscar Clavell from the Popular Parliamentary Group.
For me, and I believe I speak on behalf of all the people who have participated during these weeks in the conversations we have been having about inclusive education, it is an honor that you are here today, that you have made time in your schedules for us, and that we can think together, once again, about what school we have and what school we want.
It was difficult for me to think about how to start the session. I won't waste time, but I do think it's important to situate you in something I already mentioned in the email I sent you, which is that these are not journalistic encounters, nor are they, probably, the encounters you are accustomed to having in Congress, but rather, they are a space for citizen construction with a group of people concerned that schools respond to the needs of their families, their students, and those people who are seeing that they are not sufficiently well-cared for in schools today. The tone and climate that has prevailed during all these sessions, as you may have seen when you reviewed those videos, has been a climate of dialogue that, to me, seems exemplary. And with that climate that has been generated each week, I would like us to continue and for this to be a space for construction. A space where we know there is uncertainty, a terrain that is not all clear, that is not black or white, and where we have the need to build. And in which you, forgive me for using the informal 'tú', have a very prominent role.
I also wanted to emphasize something initial. The people who have participated so far are part of all those represented, both those who are here today and some who are not. I mean that the people who have spoken, the children, the families, the professionals, the administrators, the researchers, all of them are part of the ideological spectrum that you represent and who come together in these conversations to try to build something better, and in that context, I would like us to begin the debate.
I would start it with a couple of videos that could serve, fragments that could serve to initiate the debates. The first video, if you agree, is by Carmen Saavedra.
Carmen Saavedra:— I've been reflecting this morning on the function of school, and I've come to the conclusion that it has two: that children are educated and that they socialize, that they live together, right? However, there are many girls and many boys who don't achieve either of these two objectives. They neither get educated nor socialize. They don't live together because they don't have friends.
So, my question is: why do they go to school? Because I ask myself this question day in, day out. […]
I knew, I felt why I was sending him, but I didn't have the words to express it. Then, a few months ago, Luz López Díaz, who I don't know if she's around here, gave them to me. In one sentence, she encapsulated why I send Antón to mainstream school. She said: I have chosen for my son the same school that his siblings went to and that his neighbors go to. I think that if you separate in school, you separate for your whole life. And, there, is the reason, although I didn't know how to put it that way, why Antón goes to school.
N.C.:— Óscar, you've seen it. We can't hear you. Your mic isn't on right now.
Óscar Clavell - O.C.:— Yes, yes, I've seen it, I've seen it.
N.C.:—Okay. And, Maribel, you too? And Joan?
Joan Mena - J.M.:—Yes. Also.
N.C.:—Okay. Another one, the second video I want to show you before starting the discussion. I'll play it here.
Mar:—What I would like is to have classmates. Rather no, I didn't have classmates.
Audio description [AD]: Text: “Mar decided to leave school 3 years ago.”
Mar:— I had teachers. I like that they trusted me and believed in me. Rather, when I left school, I had already left school and no, they didn't trust me at all and what they do is watch me all the time. That they support me and teach me… Actually, they didn't teach me. They didn't teach me because I didn't do everything necessary for them to teach me. And what I like most is the freedom and moving around the schools like everyone else, and being like everyone else, too.
I am not different from others, I am different.
Lara Elizalde:— I want to say something. I think what she says is right, that she is different from others. I think you are the same as everyone, you are a person like everyone else, it's just that sometimes we have different abilities. But we are all the same and we have the right to do the same things and to be included, but we are all the same and we are unique and we are perfect as we are.
N.C.:— With this scenario, I would like to open a first round of interventions of 3 minutes. I am not going to keep track of time. We are going to have a conversation. I find what Carmen, Mar, and Lara are proposing interesting. Carmen places the debate in the school. What is separated in school, remains separated for the rest of life. And Mar raises the debate that school has not done what it should have for her to learn.
The floor is yours. Who wants to start?
O.C.:—Come on, I'll jump in. First, good afternoon everyone and thank you very much for inviting me to be part of these very interesting conferences. I will contribute all I can and more to avoid heating up the atmosphere, eh [risas]. That is the first premise you have given us. I have taken it, I have taken up the challenge.
I find the second video very interesting, but although I have seen it, I have heard it very, very poorly. I heard the first one better. But from the summary you have given, Nacho, I think it summarizes everything, it defines everything. We are facing a golden opportunity, and I'll tell you why. We have on the table, and everyone knows it, a draft of a new education law that is in the process of presenting partial amendments in the Congress of Deputies. From it, a law may emerge, or rather, a law should emerge, agreed upon, negotiated by broad groups, if not all groups, of politicians with representation in Congress. A law that is not dependent on the change of government, the change of political color, or the government in power.
It cannot be that in 40 years of democracy, we have changed education laws so many times and there are always pending issues. We need to open a period, a timeframe to listen. Earlier I read a message that someone wrote, [decía] that politicians should talk less and listen more. Well, indeed. It is time for politicians to listen. It is time for politicians to heed the suggestions, the demands that different sectors, platforms, organizations... that are linked to education of all kinds. They can contribute to us, and I am sure that very pleasant, very good, and very productive and fruitful things would be seen for a law, for an education law.
Therefore, now more than ever, a state pact for education is essential. And within education, there is a sector as important as the one we are talking about here regarding special needs, students who require some special attention. That is where that debate should take place. That is where it should be addressed. That is where it should be negotiated and agreed upon. And that is where politicians, I insist, should heed your suggestions and your requirements.
If we miss this opportunity that we have now, open today, we will lose many years to be able to pass an education law in proper condition. To please everyone, in this life, it is impossible to please everyone, but yes, a broad majority of the population, because if we talk about a specific part of education, we are losing that whole of education.
I like to talk about education, and in education, all the aspects, all the areas we suggest are included. And, for that reason, I repeat, the 4 majority parties in the chamber at this moment are represented here. The 4 parties that have been voted for by the Spanish people. If we lose this occasion, this opportunity, I think it will be very difficult for us to provide the appropriate explanations to the citizens.
N.C.:—Thank you very much. Who continues? Maribel, Georgina, Joan?
Maribel García - M.G.:—Go ahead, I'll jump in. First, I wanted to say thank you. The truth is that I find everything that has been generated very interesting. I said it before we connected. It is truly interesting from the university sphere to open this window to the world, because, moreover, I have been able to follow the different videos in which you have worked with families, children, professionals, researchers, and management teams, and the truth is that it is tremendously important and enriching.
Secondly, I wanted to say that this exercise of collective intelligence that is leading us, a colleague from the management team said the other day, who was presenting learning communities in her educational center, to which I will refer later, seems really important and necessary in the society we are living in. And, above all, following this pandemic that has revealed so many things to us, from people's homes to how we think we feel and how we work many hours a day.
And I also wanted to say that, well, my vision is multidisciplinary. I have been in active politics, professionally dedicated, if we can say so, since April 2019. I have been a physical education teacher for 20 years. I am a psychopedagogue. I worked for 8 years in diversity support as an advisor. I am a mother. We all know that I have someone close to me with cerebral palsy. As a professional said the other day. I cannot divide myself. I am a politician, right now, but it is circumstantial. I come from the world of diversity support, and that is how I want to be understood. I completely agree with Óscar. I believe that, indeed, this bill, which has not yet begun to be debated, because it is currently in the stage of presenting amendments to the articles. It is allowing, and I am convinced that Óscar, Joan, or Georgina, that we are meeting with hundreds of groups these two months, working hard on those articles and amendments, the entire educational community is being heard. We are having meetings with the entire educational community, with all the organizations, associations, and groups. Let's not forget that this law was already presented a year ago in Congress and had a very broad debate in the Education Commission at that time, but the elections came and, obviously, we could not continue advancing in all that the parliamentary work of approval or debate entails, but, it is clear that it is a law that is a great opportunity, and I agree with Óscar that we must seize it by all means to pass the best possible law, right now, for Spanish society.
And then, I wanted to make a more technical point.
N.C.:—Very briefly, Maribel, so we can move on.
M.G.:—Yes. So, I'll leave it, I don't mind. I'll leave it for a little later. I would like to make a slightly more technical proposal regarding what I believe or consider should be the attention to diversity, because, moreover, I am convinced that many of the attendees will want to hear what we, in this case, policymakers and politicians, think about attention to diversity.
N.C.:—Thank you. Very good. Thank you very much. Joan, Georgina? Who's next?
Georgina Trías - G.T.:—I can go next if you like. Well, good afternoon. Thank you very much for your invitation. Above all, for your commitment to education, to all of you who have participated these past weeks. What I want to do in this first intervention is to present some core ideas that I believe can broaden horizons regarding the topic of inclusion and that I hope will enrich the debate.
Firstly, I wanted to highlight that inclusive education should not be exclusive, nor should it be presented as the only or the best option. It should be an open choice, yes?, available to anyone who desires it, but it should not be imposed, because in this way, we respect the framework of educational freedom in which we firmly believe education should operate.
On the other hand, it has not been proven that the inclusive education model is the best, nor that all families want it, nor that all education professionals subscribe to it, who believe that Special Education centers are high-performance centers. That they are centers, and I would like to emphasize this, where students are attended to based on their needs and not where they are segregated based on their disability. And in reality, from my point of view, what we should fight for is universal accessibility to Special Education. And, even within Special Education itself, there is specialization, and specializing is not segregating; specializing contributes to a better response.
I am aware that some centers do it. It is evident that it is not the same to try to stimulate the development of children with autism, with Down syndrome, with cerebral palsy, because Special Education is a galaxy, as you all know very well, full of different strata. Specializing is not isolating either, because attending a Special Education center does not isolate a person from society, but rather, on the contrary, equips them with more tools and resources to better function in society later on. They are high-level centers that cater to children from an early age, and sometimes, a few years in Special Education centers are enough to then transition into mainstream education. In my view, standardization always detracts from the quality of education, and all of you here know this.
The different pedagogical orientations and theories are very diverse and must be respected in the name of freedom and within the framework of legality. And in this sense, I also want to highlight a very important issue. What should prevail is the best interest of the minor. And this, the best interest of the minor, is never isolated. Many vectors converge in the best interest of the minor: their parents, their family, the sociocultural environment, the school they attend… And, therefore, if we equate the best interest of the minor with inclusion, we fall into reductionism. In my view, everything we are building is misguided. And this interest is closely related to giving each person what they need at each moment. The question is who decides.
N.C.:—We are wrapping up now, Georgina.
G.T.:—Yes. Here, again, we face a recurring problem, which is: how each autonomous community acts differently, right? And then, also, two more little things. If we think about the emotional well-being of the minor, it is evident that inclusion is not the recipe for achieving it. It may work sometimes, but not always. Here, the words 'never' and 'always' do not work, and it's logical, because each person is a world and what works for one does not work for another. Even with the same type of disability.
On the other hand…
N.C.:— Mmmm, let's wrap up.
G.T.:— Yes. On a more political level, there seems to be an intention to lower the percentages of students in Special Education because they haven't decreased in the last 20 years. So, here I would like to make a point, right? That this intention does not take into account the dignity of the person. We are talking about people, not numbers. The types of disabilities, moreover, are different, and those of you who know the subject, they are different now than they were 20 years ago.
And finally, I conclude. I believe that all of you who are involved in the issue of Special Education must be clear that no one should appropriate disability. No platform, no association, nor any government. And avoid any biased view of this reality. We must be respectful of the different approaches and allow each orientation to develop within the framework of educational freedom, without imposing one approach over others that are equally legitimate. Thank you very much.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Georgina. Joan.
Joan Mena:— Well, thank you very much, and good afternoon to all of you. First, I'd also like to thank you for the invitation from the Unidas Podemos-En Comú Podem group, and congratulate you on the work you are doing with these activities.
I'm like Maribel: I'm a secondary school teacher, and now, in addition, I'm serving as a political representative. That's why, many times, it's hard for me to take off one hat and put on another, because, above all else, I stand up for education. I believe that the videos you've shared with us, what they talk about and what they are fundamentally based on, is the right to education. What we should be reflecting on is, basically, the right to education and whether all children in this country, regardless of their social, economic, physical, or psychological circumstances, have the same right to education. We believe that, unfortunately, they do not. We have not achieved a law that guarantees the right to education for all children.
The main problem Spain has, and this isn't just said by Unidas Podemos-En Comú Podem, but by all the reports from our European surroundings and OECD countries. Spain's main educational problem is precisely segregation, which is motivated by different causes, right? Socioeconomic segregation, but also the segregation of students with specific circumstances. That's why I also believe that the model of school we aim to build says a lot about the model of society we want to build in Spain. Therefore, an inclusive society, where 'everyone is equal because they are different,' as the video said, is the model of education that we defend, because it is also the model of country that we defend from Unidas Podemos.
What do we aspire to in the educational model? What kind of school do we want from Unidas Podemos? We want, and we're not deceiving anyone or hiding anything, an education that is public. We want an education that is free, and we want an education that is inclusive, because these are the 3 fundamental pillars for guaranteeing a society free from inequalities. I believe that if freedom is to serve any purpose, it must be precisely to ensure that there are no inequalities and that these inequalities are not established or institutionalized, especially not from an educational system like ours. To do this, to be able to achieve this, and I believe we also need to talk about this and be serious, we basically need two things. The first, more resources. I believe that either we allocate more resources to education, or, if not, in the end, we will have a lie built on a foundation that is not the true one, right?
I, who have also had contact with many families, have the feeling that most families… I am convinced that most families want the best for their sons and daughters. The problem often lies with us, from the school, wrongly called, mainstream. If there are no mechanisms. If there are no resources to support all students, regardless of the circumstances they present with, many families look for alternatives, right? That's why I believe that public authorities are responsible for ensuring that school must serve all children.
We also need training. We need teachers to have a lot of training. The cuts in education over the last 10 years have dismantled public education in our country a lot, but they have practically weakened teacher training, which needs to be, well, a teaching staff that is updated on a daily basis. That law that we believe in, we want it to be a law that shields public education, free education, and also, inclusive education. It must guarantee that no boy, no girl, is left behind for the reasons I mentioned earlier, and I'm finishing up. I believe that the LOMLOE must include this.
Earlier, my colleague Óscar mentioned that in Spain, during Democracy, we have had up to 7 educational laws. That's true. But I don't see it as a bad thing, in the sense that laws are meant to be updated. The problem we've had is that almost none of those laws have had the input or approval of the entire educational community, which means that if we don't create a law that is endorsed by the educational community, we will fail again, right? I think that's one of the elements, one of the needs we have on the table. And I'll finish with something I don't want to leave unsaid.
I believe that most of the political forces represented in the Congress of Deputies today agree more on these aspects than what often reaches society. Surely we insist more on highlighting our differences and making public a dispute between one and another, and we don't realize that we are our own worst enemies when we do that. And I am convinced that what I would ask all political forces is to take education out of our political and partisan battle, which is very legitimate, because ideology is for that, but I believe that the common good, education, must be above the partisan interests of one political force or another.
Thank you very much.
N.C.:—Many comments are coming in. Several of them relate to Spain's ratification of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2008, which is then evaluated by the committee itself, and which, for example, could, could lead to a question like this.
In addition to meeting with the different sectors linked to education, are you drafting this new law with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in your hands?
Another person, for example, asks: Do you think it can be argued that it is widely supported by numerous national and international investigations, and there is also a superior argument, which is that we are talking about human rights and an international treaty ratified by Spain?
Well… If you agree, we could continue this way. Who’s next?
M.G.:—May I? Regarding the Convention on Human Rights and the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The report issued by the UN in 2018 speaks of an investigation into alleged grave or systematic violations of Article 24 of the right to education in the Convention by Spain, concerning the structural exclusion and segregation of persons with disabilities in the general education system. This was a tremendous blow to the Spanish education system when it was published because, by studying the Convention’s basis, we can see that, indeed, we want to take it into account in the new law, it couldn’t be any other way. For me, that Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, approved by the UN in 2006 and ratified by Spain in 2008, is showing us a path.
A very clear path regarding the necessary achievement in all cases of what is referred to as personal adjustments. We must guarantee persons with disabilities, all types of persons with special educational needs and with SEN, that is, diversity, because we are all diverse, the enjoyment, the exercise, on equal terms with others, of all human and fundamental rights, including education and inclusive education. And this does not mean that, at a given moment, we have to give up some form of schooling or that we have to consider that everything is black or white. I think you mentioned it at the beginning, didn’t you? I believe we have the opportunity at three levels. At the macro level, we have an opportunity, which is the draft education laws, and this draft education law will not stand alone; it will be accompanied by future Royal Decrees, where the digital divide and the learning gap, which have become crystal clear with COVID-19, must be addressed, yes or yes.
We must work on adapted vocational training for persons with disabilities because, as a young woman said in a video, it cannot be that I stay at home and my maximum is to be in a Day Center or a residence after the age of 21. We must work to bring about an absolute change in teacher training, in initial training, as you have seen and discussed on other occasions, in continuous professional development, and in access to public service.
It is clear that this is an opportunity. I see it as a challenge. And that is at a macro level, but at a meso level we move to the transfer of educational competencies, the autonomous communities and their Decrees for attention to diversity. The Decrees for attention to diversity need to be rethought and re-examined very carefully. We need to rethink what a psycho-pedagogical evaluation is for, what a schooling report is for, what the use of the human resources we have in classrooms is, whether we take children out, whether we segregate them, whether we bring them into the classroom, because it is clear that, in learning communities, one of the things that has taught us the most is that when not one teacher enters a classroom, but more than one person enters, the educational community enters, what surrounds the school enters, it is much more enriching, it is an enriched learning space and, therefore, much more inclusive. And at a micro level, all the work we have to do as educational centers and as classrooms: good practices, greater autonomy, UDLS, the sensitivity of educational centers. We have to remember and resume that work because we have to personalize teaching. We are all equal, we are all different, but it is not a matter of adapting teaching. For me, the word adaptation has become outdated and has been reduced. Teaching must be personalized. We have to reach every boy and every girl, because no one can be left behind and that, that idea that any boy or girl can achieve their highest potential in the Spanish education system; that must be our work. That must be our point of view. And I believe that this Convention does not tell us if centers…
N.C.:— Let's wrap up.
M.G.:— I'm finishing. I'm finishing, yes. Special Education Centers, yes or no. It does not tell us if specialized classrooms or not. What we have to seek and rethink is that our education system is inclusive in all its areas, in all its modalities and that it responds to Spanish society, which is diverse, which is unique and, therefore, that all of us can fulfill ourselves within it.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Maribel. I thought that, precisely in these conversations, that debate has barely been present. The debate that has been present all the time is how to ensure that no one leaves school feeling dismissed, how to ensure that no one feels excluded in schools, and that debate has been worked on all the time. Two things.
One, Maribel, when I said before, not everything is black and white. Probably, the comment was not accurate, because in law, it is indeed black or white. I meant that, in the construction of our ideas and our practices and our cultures, things are not black or white. And, on the other hand, I wanted to comment that, something that had already come up, is that, yes, there is a lot of scientific research and, in fact, in one of the conversations, the conversation of researchers, it became very clear. Therefore, I would like us to have debates based on data.
Alright, who wants to go next?
O.C.:—Okay, shall I continue?
N.C.:—Thank you very much.
O.C.:—Okay. Some very interesting points have been made so far, and many more will be made. Among my colleagues, two have mentioned they are teachers and know what teaching is like from the inside. I haven't said it, but I am too. I also teach at the secondary level. I also know what teaching is like from the inside, and the other day I said it in another meeting. I said that if we were to draft and create an education law, four active teachers, inside a classroom, would come up with a perfect law in a month, because legislating from Madrid is very difficult or very far removed from the reality, to put it another way, of how it can be done from within a classroom. We are talking about an education law. Only teachers know what a class is, they know their students, they know how they have to work with their students and what they have to do. Unfortunately, then, those who dayby day day are working or belong to platforms dedicated to education.
That said, indeed, the teaching staff is magnificent teaching staff in all aspects. In Spain, from the People's Party, we are advocating for an educational MIR, just as doctors have when they finish their medical degree, so should teachers. That training be permanent because, like it or not, society is changing; reality is not the same. Today's reality, the education system is not the same now as it was 15 years ago, nor will it be the same in 20 years. Therefore, this changing reality, we also have to adapt and mold it to the training system for teachers. Of course, as I said at the beginning, all parties must be heard. All groups must be considered, all of them. Of course, the convention on human rights must be taken into account. Of course, Article 27 of the Spanish Constitution must be taken into account. Of course, all judicial rulings, from the Supreme Court, from the Constitutional Court, must be taken into account. Whether they point in one direction or another. Of course, everything must be taken into account, because if we left out any party, however small, without considering them, that law would already be flawed, it would not come out as complete as it should.
We talk about teachers, we talk about students, but, many times, we forget about families. And families, parents, know perfectly well what they want for their children. Sometimes they need advice or some external support to decide, because they are not education experts, just like me. If I need legal advice, I go to a lawyer. If I need health advice, I go to a doctor. It is normal for parents to have to seek professional advice to be able to choose the type of education they want for their children at some point. But I don't know any father or mother who doesn't want the best for their children and, therefore, the freedom of choice enshrined in the Spanish Constitution. Enshrined in a democratic state like ours, the Spanish one. It must be present, and it is parents who must choose the education for their children. And it is the public administrations that must guarantee this right of choice for parents. Whether it is the State, or the autonomous communities, because, let's say, the vast majority of educational competencies are transferred to the autonomous communities, to the education departments. And, therefore, if we reach that point, there should be no problem.
Are human and economic resources needed? Of course. Human and economic resources are needed, but, with all the cards on the table, I am sure, I am sure, that we could pass that law or reach very important and lasting agreements.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Óscar. I was just reading a comment. It says, "Could you tell the EOE teams?" Because, in reality, families don't decide that today. Those who decide the school where children are enrolled are not the families, but the orientation teams. More words. Joan.
J.M.:— Yes, I. May I?
N.C.:— Go ahead.
J.M.:— Well, I have several points. I'm not as optimistic as Óscar. I don't think that teachers alone would have created the best educational law in this country. We would have to incorporate, for example, families, who are also a fundamental part of the educational community, and that's something that hasn't been done in the different educational laws we've had during this period of democracy, right? That's why I said: the bad thing about this period, about these 40 years, hasn't been that there have been many educational laws, because laws are meant to be updated, to be modernized, and Spain in the 80s didn't need the same education as in the 90s, nor as in the 2000s, nor as we need now. We have to adapt Spanish society and its public schools to the challenges of Spanish society at each moment, but it's true that we haven't been able to incorporate opinions or involvement.
Often due to a lack of political will, most of the time in the different educational laws. The day we do that, we will surely have a law that will last longer, because those who have to apply it in the classrooms, precisely, will believe in it. I think, honestly, we shouldn't take steps backward. Spain already has an inclusive education model that has been ratified since 2008, as Maribel said. Therefore, from that point on, the obligation we all have, those of us in the Congress of Deputies, is how to adapt the educational legislation and regulations to what Spain has already ratified. That is to say, we already have the mandate. From there, we have to see how we make it possible for schools in Spain to be inclusive schools, where all boys and all girls can fit.
And I believe there are 4 fundamental elements to achieve this. The first, as I said before, is training, which is basic. We need to expand teacher training. Not only initial training, which is very important, but also ongoing professional development, which has been cut in all the autonomous communities, and we are a fundamental piece. We have to be trained every day.
Second, resources. Without resources, without investment in education, we will not be able to aspire to the structural changes that the Spanish educational model needs.
Third, which I think is fundamental and we should also take advantage of a situation arising from COVID-19. We have the obligation to try to reduce class sizes in our classrooms, because that also favors inclusive education and favors the individualized attention that I believe all political parties of any ideology defend. Therefore, let's also agree on how to reduce these class sizes in our classrooms to guarantee that all students are being attended to according to their needs.
And the fourth, which for me is a fundamental element. Many times we forget, and the first ones to forget are us teachers. Allow me to speak as a teacher now. We need to incorporate new professional profiles into education. We need more than just teachers. We need counselors, pedagogues, aides, psychopedagogues… We need social educators. In other words, there must be a very diverse profile of professionals in education in our country to ensure that the school is precisely an inclusive school.
And I'll finish with something. Many times, when we talk about families' choice, it still seems like a bit of a trick we all play on ourselves, because if the school I have next to my house had all the tools to offer an education that I believe my son or daughter should have, I wouldn't consider alternatives to the school right in front of my house. Therefore, what we need to achieve is that the school in front of our houses, no matter which neighborhood we live in, which city we live in, which town we live in, in the rural towns, of which there are many in Spain, is the best. And that's why I said it must be public, free, and inclusive, because the school we all have next to our homes must be the best so we don't have to look for alternatives elsewhere. Many times, we present families' freedom of choice as a trap to, in a way, not provide the necessary tools that the school in our neighborhood should have, and therefore, to present as an alternative what is an obligation on the part of families.
N.C.:—Very good, thank you very much. Recalling what you were saying, something that a mother sent me. She told me about a conversation she had with one of her sons; she has 3 sons. The mother asks her son what would happen if, one day, the center told one of his siblings that he couldn't stay because of his behavior or whatever. And then, this boy, Martín, replies: well, we'll have to help him. And then she asks about the other brother, who has autism, and when he replies, he responds with a question: what's the difference to think that Lucas can go to my school and Héctor can't go to my school? Who decides who goes to one school or another? Because it seems like a decision, but in reality, it's a decision that is, at best, very conditional.
Here, in the group of families here, there is someone in particular who has been litigating for the right to stay, to remain, of her son in the center where he was enrolled. And regarding the issue of training, there was also a comment out there, which I read, that said: 'if it's been more than 25 years since the Salamanca statement, what does it take for teachers to be trained properly? Since then, we've supposedly been training for inclusive education, what's the problem with training?'
More words. Georgina. The mic. Now.
G.T.:—Yes, well, I wanted to make some observations. We approach education within the framework of freedom. And freedom implies respect for rights. Of course, fundamental rights contemplated through the bodies you have cited. Fundamental rights contemplated in the Spanish Constitution. Therefore, what we cannot do is suddenly say that freedom of choice is a trap or that an article of the Constitution is a false right. I believe that parents' freedom to choose their children's education is a fundamental right. And I would simply like to point out something I haven't said before. I think objective criteria are needed so that this doesn't happen, so that all those rulings you are mentioning don't occur. Many families have wanted to send their children to mainstream education. And, precisely, the platforms that bring together all families of children with disabilities should be the ones, in my opinion, to agree on objective criteria. So that a student goes to one center or another with the help of families. In short, to have a bit more consensus there.
And then, I think it is very important to make a life plan. Even beyond objective criteria regarding disability. We all know, from family experiences, what coexistence with beauty and richness brings. These people are undoubtedly special because they open us to another perspective on existence and enrich it, but all that, which coexistence entails, has nothing to do with the freedom we may have to decide the education we want for our brother, for our son, for our nephew. Therefore, I think we must avoid exclusivism. Inclusive education, great, but not exclusively, because then freedom comes into play.
And then, of course, man, to say that the ideal is to have the school in front of your house, hopefully, hopefully. But, well, there is a mosaic of pedagogical proposals from different schools, and anyone who knows about pedagogy knows that pedagogy does not propose a single model of education, but rather pedagogical proposals. And when one decides which school to send their child to, they must be able to choose. And, hopefully, public schools would offer these different pedagogical proposals and not be a uniform school. Hopefully. Thank you very much.
N.C.:—Of course, when you talked about objective criteria, a text, a comment appears that says: "so, what do we agree on, official criteria or family choice." In reality, well, it's something complex. I don't want to get into it.
G.T.:—There are many vectors, right? It's a complex issue. I think...
N.C.:—Sure, Georgina, what happens is that it might seem that families are choosing, and that's not the problem, the problem is. You just have to watch some of the videos, especially those from families and young people... I'm going to play a video here so we can watch it and discuss it.
G.T.:—Because, excuse me, excuse me. Regarding the videos. For example, the first one you showed says: 'if you segregate in school, you segregate for life.' Well, that's a deterministic view. Not everyone thinks that way. I know many families who don't think that way, but many. You can't generalize that. It's a reductionist view.
J.M.:—But Georgina, then answer me one thing: why does your son or daughter, who plays with the neighbor across the street, have to go to a school 50 km away? I think that's an exclusionary functioning on the part of society. And forgive us for asking questions, maybe it's not the...
N.C.:—Well, I think it's good that you're entering this debate. I think it's good. I'm going to play this video to see what it provokes.
Marcos:— Hello, Nacho.
N.C.:— Hello, how are you? Fine. What is your school like, Marcos?
Marcos:— It's fine.
N.C.:— Yes… it's fine? Why is it fine?
Marcos:— It's good for me.
N.C.:—It's good for you.
Marcos:—Not so much for my sister.
N.C.:—Not so much for your sister, why?
Marcos:—Because she feels alone in the playground.
N.C.:—Your sister feels alone in the playground.
Marcos:—She is alone.
N.C.:—She is alone? Always. Is she always alone?
Marcos:— Yes.
N.C.:— And how do you see that?
Marcos:— Bad.
N.C.:— And why do you think she is alone?
Marcos:— I don't know.
N.C.:—And how could that be fixed, Marcos, what do you suggest?
Marcos:—By talking to their classmates.
N.C.:—By talking to their classmates... and what could we say to their classmates?
Marcos:—Let them join her.
N.C.:—Mmm, and why do you think they don't join her?
Marcos:—Because she has autism.
N.C.:—And because of that, you think they don't join her?
Marcos:— Yes.
N.C.:— You said before, Marcos, that school was good for you, why is it good for you?
Marcos:— Because they give me things to do, I'm with my friends, they hang out with me…
N.C.:— Yes. So, they give you homework, you hang out with your friends, and you see that doesn't happen with your sister.
Marcos:— Yes.
N.C.:— Well, thank you very much, Marcos, because you have helped us a lot to understand what your school is like. Thank you, Marcos.
Marcos:— You're welcome.
M.G.:— Well, what that child says about his reality and his sister's reality is absolutely clear and crystal clear. They are in the same educational center and are having a completely different educational experience. I think, honestly, that with this video we have to ask ourselves several things: what kind of education do we want. Diversity exists and has existed from birth to death. All people are different and all people are equal, and if we educate in a segregated and differentiated way, we will not know how to live and coexist in the society we are in. Therefore, I think we must decisively work for a more cohesive society, and that comes from addressing diversity in its broadest sense.
Regarding one of the videos, there was talk of social justice and school justice and curricular justice. I really liked it, because this child is actually demanding or requesting curricular justice and educational justice for his sister. I think that attention to diversity cannot depend on the will of a family, it cannot depend on the will of an administration or the will of a teacher, as you have said on many occasions: the teacher tells you they are not prepared, the teacher doesn't want them in their classroom, or the family wants this or only this. I have indeed read the ruling and am aware of the enrollment ruling that is happening on both sides. Families asking for their child to go to a Special Education center, and families asking for their son or daughter to go to a mainstream school.
The current system we have obliges us and, in a way, requires all of us professionals dedicated to education to work collectively. Guidance teams cannot be one side, educational centers another, teachers another, families another. We cannot be at war. We have a child who has needs, and we have to sit down, discuss it, and ensure that the assessment is not a final judgment, or that the administration ultimately has to be sued because the family or the child wants to... no, we cannot continue down this path, and I believe this educational bill must also compel us to sit down and reflect, for policymakers and politicians on this issue, so that later, in the Decrees on attention to diversity...
N.C.:—We are closing now. …
M.G.:—of the different autonomous communities becomes a reality. And we have to, we have to rethink, we have to sit down and think.
N.C.:—Thank you very much, Maribel. I'm receiving a comment that relates to what you are discussing. Schooling assessments are not optional; they are schooling assessments. In fact, those rulings question the legal validity of those schooling assessments. No one chooses that, and it cannot be framed as something chosen when the mechanism for a person to go to a Special Education center or a specific classroom is something decided by, for example, a professional.
More words.
M.G.:—Just one thing. The specific Educational and Psychopedagogical Guidance teams and the other guidance departments, I am convinced that they do their job as best as possible, just like education professionals, and that when they issue a schooling report, they make a proposal. The family signs for or against that proposal. Remember that. It's not exactly…
N.C.:—But the family cannot refuse, I mean, when the schooling report is presented, it is, in the end, absolute. The family can refuse, but that can be taken as far as the professional wants, as far as the administration wants, really.
I'm going to send another video that relates to this. Very short.
Raúl R. López:—Sooner or later, we face a dilemma. What do I do, adapt to what is expected of me or enforce human rights?
N.C.:—He is a professional, he is a counselor; in fact, there are many counselors in this situation.
J.M.:—Of course, that's why I said that, surely, we get bogged down in this whole issue of what families choose and what families don't choose when the debate is about whether schools have the necessary tools to deal with students who present any kind of need. Because, surely, when we achieve that, there will be no professionals who have to consider excluding a student so that they can be attended to according to the educational requirements imposed by public administrations. And, probably, there won't be too many families who consider taking their children to certain schools. Because, as I said, I think the debate we still have is what are the tools, what are the resources that schools need to guarantee that any student, regardless of their personal, social, or economic circumstances of the family, is best attended to. And I think, honestly, that's the debate we should be having from a political perspective, and I have a feeling I won't be very wrong. I believe that in this debate we will find common ground, regardless of our individual ideologies, which are, of course, legitimate, because the well-being of the minor, the well-being of my child, who votes left, being well-cared for in a school, and my neighbor's child, who votes right, also being well-cared for in school, is in our interest as a society in general. It is where we will find those common points that I know or believe are what we need to move forward on, which is why I think we should stop debating.
I said a trick, call it what you want, but debates that lead us nowhere, that only seek confrontation between families and others, and seek the best interest, which is the good for education, which must be how we guarantee that the school provides the attention that any boy or girl needs, regardless of their personal circumstances. For that, we need resources, we need teacher training, and we clearly need different professional profiles beyond the historical teacher we've always had in our classrooms.
N.C.:—Thank you very much.
O.C.:—It's not about, if you allow me, Nacho, confrontations, or winning battles, or anything of the sort. Sometimes, human beings, people, are experts at making the easy difficult and complicating our lives in such a way that what seems like such an obvious reality, which we can almost touch with our fingertips, we turn into a universe, and indeed, there are many important things.
One is that, at times, labeling something is very painful. Always adding some adjective like inclusive, exclusive, special, ordinary… Behind that, at times, there is a lot of pain, a lot of pain and a lot of cruelty. Which, in many cases, is indeed the reality, but we add that touch that, at times, dehumanizes it, to put it in a way, in the matter we are dealing with. They say that children never lie, and when we see realities like that of this child, Marcos, from the previous video, who denounced what his sister is suffering because she is autistic, the truth is that it is a drama and that is the reality. And, indeed, it is showing us that something is not working well, that something is failing in the education system. Call it resources, which can be economic resources, professional ones, whatever. When parents cannot freely choose the school, whether it's the one in front of their house, or the one on the other side of the city, or the one in the next town. But when they cannot freely choose that school, something is also failing, something is not working, and that is what should concern us.
Everything would work well, and I have said this before, when public administrations, and I speak in plural, are the guarantors that we, as citizens, have our rights and can access them. And those public administrations, if I, as a father, or anyone listening to us as a father or mother who wants to take their child to any school, without adjectives, I insist, without adjectives, I am not going to objectify the nouns now, to take their child to any school, whether they have a disability or not, through the education system that is taught in that school… Whatever it is, I don't care. I insist that I don't want to go into details. If they cannot do it, it is because the system is failing us. And that must be corrected. That sometimes, one way to correct it, indeed, I agree with my colleagues, is economic resources. Of course. I wouldn't doubt it. Far from it. But it's not just economic resources. There are also other aspects to consider, and I insist, parents are the ones who should have the first and last word, always accompanied, at some point, by external support to best school their children.
M.G.:—I just have one point. That perhaps, Óscar, is possible in a city like Madrid. In Extremadura, an absolutely rural area, we have the centers we have, and any boy or girl can choose the center they want, simply because there is one, perhaps, in their town and no other. Therefore, when I said that attention to diversity must be the best possible also in that center, because it is the one they have. We are not going to take that child on a bus every day when they can be in their center. That is what I was referring to, taking into account that, of course, I understand you, Óscar, we have to differentiate between rural and urban schools… It's just that everything is so broad [risas] that this is the casuistry. We cannot set a rule or a regulation because it is not possible.
O.C.:—Totally agree.
N.C.:—I am being asked a question here: 'Do you think that creating a bill from a pact will make what Marcos says change?'
J.M.:—I'll give you my opinion, if you like. If we do it from an exclusively political pact within the four walls of the Congress of Deputies, it will be very difficult. If we do it from a pact between political forces and the educational community, then we would be starting to structurally change what has been done in education in the last 40 years.
O.C.:—Let this not set a precedent, but I agree with him.
J.M.:—(Laughter) Good.
M.G.:—Very good, very good, come on, come on. (Laughter) Dangerous precedent, dangerous precedent [risas].
O.C.:— But delete this from the video, okay, delete it.
N.C.:— (Laughter) I'll delete it, I'll delete it [risas]. Well, more ideas. I have another video here. The truth is, I've always had a soft spot for families, as they are who I work with the most and who I research the most, especially mothers. I think the knowledge that mothers generate is of incalculable value for schools, and it's not being taken into account right now. If we want schools to be inclusive, this knowledge must necessarily be brought to the forefront, as a great tool for building pedagogical knowledge.
That's already been said, but I have to say that the session with young people we had here, with children and young people… Georgina, did you want to comment on something?
G.T.:— Yes, you've touched a nerve. Regarding mothers' knowledge, just a small note. I've also been in training for many years. Before and always, I've spoken about knowledge by connaturality, which is the knowledge a mother naturally has about what's happening with her child, and which she knows, by connaturality, by love. Through that knowledge that love gives. Because she loves him, she knows how to best care for her child. I just wanted to make this point, because I found it very beautiful and because I subscribe to it.
N.C.:— Pues, fíjate, por ahí andan parte de mis investigaciones. En el conocimiento que generan las madres, particularmente, también los padres, evidentemente, pero, particularmente, yo he trabajado con las madres y es un conocimiento de su hijo. Tú dices desde el amor. También lo planteo así en mis trabajos, desde el amor. Y es un conocimiento directo con la persona, más allá de todo el proceso de etiquetado que ocurre, en diferentes instituciones. Ocurre en la sanidad desde que comienza el nacimiento de tu hijo o tu hija y, después, la institución escolar también trabaja a partir de ahí.
Y las familias lo que hacen, y en particular las madres, es conocer a la persona sin el estigma, tienen esa capacidad…
G.T.:— Exacto.
N.C.:— … esa capacidad de mostrar a la institución quién es esa persona sin el estigma.
G.T.:— Y no solo a la institución, sino al propio niño, porque, si tú eres capaz, cada día que amanece, mirar a tu hijo con una mirada nueva, sin etiquetas, porque ya no es ante la institución, es que tú realmente no digas: «este es un vago, este es un pesado, con este no se puede, este es un inútil…». Todo esto limita de forma radical a los hijos. Hay que formar a los padres también, y yo a eso me he dedicado muchísimo.
N.C.:—Yes. It also happens, I'm going into more than I should here…
G.T.:—I know, me too (laughs), sorry, uh.
N.C.:—… but we are working on the school, also on the family aspect. The educational aspect, there are no separate areas.
G.T.:—It transcends.
N.C.:— But, I was saying, that knowledge, you said ‘natural’, I wouldn’t call it natural…
G.T.:— Connatural.
N.C.:— Connatural. I wouldn’t call it that, but I think we’re talking about the same thing. That genuine knowledge that is generated within families… Not in all families, it must be said. In some families or in many families, in those I’ve known, certainly. That is a great tool for the school. And one of the things you’ve raised here, but which has also been raised in previous sessions, is the importance of participation in schools, that the community goes to schools, that they can enter them, that it can transform the culture… That is one of the great tools we have.
Well, I’ll play another video. I have a soft spot for young people too. I’ll play you a short video to continue, and we’ll wrap up shortly.
Antón Fontao:— What measures will you take to ensure no child feels alone at school?
M.G.:—Yes, I was saying that at the micro level we have a series of good practices that we could and should recover, and not just leave it to the good will of some educational centers or some teachers who are more trained or more involved in inclusive education.
We have inclusive playgrounds, we have very interesting work with learning communities by Ramón Flecha throughout the country, scientifically shown and worked on, we have families and associations, collectives, entities, that work hand in hand with educational centers so that no child feels this way. It is a tremendous cruelty to still have boys and girls in educational centers alone. And the teachers, we work with the best of each home, with the treasure of each home. My children, I have two children, and they are the treasure of my home, and I am convinced that all mothers and all fathers and all families listening to us, their children are the most important thing and their daughters for them. So, we have to go back to working at all these levels, because within our legislative scope, we have the capacity to legislate, but we also have the capacity to work, as Joan said, as Óscar said, to work with the entire educational community so that we can learn in an action research, which in the end is an action research that is bearing fruit and reaping its fruits in many parts of Spain.
G.T.:—Well, in this vein, and to respond to the video, I would like to say that, despite the fact that our parliamentary group has flatly rejected this new law that is being processed because it is eminently ideological, we have supported the amendment that deals with integrating emotional education. Emotional education, which implies a comprehensive education of the person: forming people. I don't know what that is that you mentioned about inclusive playgrounds. So, let that be a natural reality, but not only with regard to persons with disabilities, but with anyone who is not like you, who does not think like you, who thinks differently. And in this, we politicians must set an example, in how we relate to those who think differently. There, respect for the person comes in, seeing people, seeing that the person is above all a good and that therefore must be respected, even if they have differences with me.
It is a great, great training effort, as you have already said here, a pending issue, which is the training of teachers, families, children, and it is constant, in my opinion, through dialogue, interaction, that capacity to be aware of what is happening everywhere, of that empathy. 'Empathy', this word has been overused. I hardly dare to use it anymore, because it is very misused, frankly. So, I, who am an expert in emotional education, when I hear it, I say, 'Damn, this is not empathy, for God's sake'. But it is true that, if we manage that the person, human beings, our students, our children, ourselves, because that also grows as we get older, then we can grow in this. Without a doubt, we would improve coexistence and we will not see these situations that all hurt us.
N.C.:—Of course, in reality, in those conversations, despite the fact that they were held very calmly, there is a great deal of pain deposited in those sessions. I think, if that is, as Georgina said, one of the great gaps in our school: how we are dealing with students' emotions. For example, how motivation falls, especially in secondary school. This has to do with the satisfaction and desire that students have to be there. What are we doing?
But, of course, some groups get the lion's share. The example, I think, we have it in these videos, because there are brothers and sisters who tell the story of their time at school and the school's time, but the school of their brother or sister. And that big difference there is not diversity, it is inequality. We must understand it as the inequality we have to remove, and that you, as politicians, have a great task ahead of you.
O.C.:— And often, Nacho, if you allow me, more than inequality, it becomes cruelty. And it's very hard, very hard. It's that what, going back to the video of this last boy, Antón, his name is, right? I'm already in the second chapter of the book. We've talked about the first chapter, which would be that each student can be in the center they want, but once inside the center, they shouldn't feel isolated, they shouldn't feel marginalized. Not only for people with some type of disability, social isolation, for many reasons, not only for having a physical, psychological disability, of any kind. And teachers, we have a daily struggle. And that's why someone asked before: 'Wasn't what happened in Salamanca 25 years ago enough?' Society is changing at such a rapid, voracious pace. We are in the digitalization of society and this changes so quickly that the ways of teaching or the ways of facing a group of students are not the same now as they were 25 years ago, nor will they be in 7 years. That's why we teachers have to be in continuous training, practically daily. Not to get comfortable until we retire.
One gets their position and gets comfortable, right? Quite the opposite. We must be permanently training ourselves in issues as sensitive as these. And I repeat, the Spanish team is exceptional, exceptional. I can't say anything negative, in general, about the teaching staff, but, I insist, sometimes we encounter realities within a classroom that become cruel.
N.C.:— Well, I wanted to say that, in reality, when we talk about inclusive school, we are talking about the whole school, about school for all citizens. And when Georgina spoke earlier about emotions, they are something for all citizens. And when you comment, Óscar, on this intervention, you are also referring to all citizens. It's not about anything else, it's just that there are populations that are outside, or that being inside are still outside, and that's the great work we have. One of the researchers who participated in these sessions, Nacho Haya is his name, said that we had to move from this very biologistic idea, which understands disability as a biological problem, to understanding that our work is in seeing the exclusionary pressures in the system, which is what Antón was talking about. He wasn't talking about anything else. Or what Marcos was talking about earlier, when he said that school wasn't good for his sister.
Those pressures that the system is currently exerting so that his sister is not there. Those are what we have to work on. And Óscar commented, 'a lot of time has passed and time changes since Salamanca.' But we haven't even done that. That is to say, the purposes of the Salamanca Declaration, years have passed since that UNESCO declaration, we haven't achieved them.
Joan wanted to comment and we're going to wrap up in a moment.
J.M.:—Yes, I don't agree with what Óscar said, (irony), nor without setting a precedent. I believe that, precisely, the question Antón asked us is the main question that we, as public administrations and political representatives, have the obligation to answer.
First, because it can be done in two ways. Either we implement measures, let's say, specific, patches, to put it that way, to correct the deficits in the system. Or we consider structural changes, which are what our education system needs to guarantee that all boys and girls receive attention in our schools. I said it. The structural changes that we from Unidas Podemos propose are those that seek an education that is public, that is free, that is inclusive, because we believe it is the school for all boys and girls, regardless of their needs. I'll use myself as an example. I don't need to say it. I've been a chubby kid my whole life, tending towards being overweight, and when I had physical education, I needed special attention, different from what the rest of my classmates needed. Well, that's what we have to guarantee: that, within that school, regardless of the needs we each have due to our physical, psychological, or socioeconomic conditions, we are attended to within the educational centers. Because that is, and I return to what I said at the beginning and with that I finish, what will also guarantee us an inclusive society. Not a society where some of us see ourselves as different from others, but where we all see ourselves as equal, precisely because we are different.
O.C.:—As far as the Popular Party is concerned, I would be willing, as the education spokesperson for my party, in the Congress of Deputies. I'm not closing myself off to anyone. I am willing to sit down and talk about everything. I said it before. To reach a negotiation, all, all the cards must be put, face up, on the table. All of them. Mine and everyone else's.
And I agree that not all my cards will be accepted, but the other party must also agree that I cannot accept all of their cards either. It's a negotiation, ultimately. There must be concessions from both sides, from all sides. I insist: sitting down at a table with political parties, to achieve... well, with political parties, I insist, and with the entire educational community, because that's what Joan Mena and I agreed on earlier, the educational community must be an active player, not a passive one, not a guest of honor, but a totally active player in this negotiation. And, of course, negotiate to reach an education law that lasts over time and that is well-received, especially by the educational community. I'm willing to do that without any problem.
G.T.:—On my part, indeed, and as you said at the beginning. Something very important. It's about listening first, and then listening. If you listen well, you can always reach an agreement. So, that's it. I'll take this opportunity to thank you, Ignacio, for the invitation, and that's it. From our team, we will continue fighting for education, for this commitment, for providing it with the resources it needs, for attending to all the needs of families with children with disabilities, and also for freedom. Thank you very much.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Georgina. We are going to close now. Maribel. Go ahead.
M.G.:— First, I want to thank the people who have attended. I am totally available to any family, mother, or person who has participated to answer questions and for whatever else is needed. I am very happy to hear Óscar and Georgina and, of course, Joan, because from here we can achieve what is expected of us as policymakers and politicians: to agree on the best possible education law. I want to believe that, and I am convinced of it, we all want a quality and equitable education system, because if there is no equity, there is no quality. And therefore, I am convinced that we will be able to move forward, and I am available for any questions or suggestions from the entire educational community that I know is following us. Thank you very much.
N.C.:— Thank you very much. Georgina, Joan…
O.C.:— Nacho, I also take this opportunity to say goodbye. Thanks for inviting me. The truth is that I have been very comfortable. This hour and a half has passed very pleasantly and quickly. I could have stayed much longer. You have me here for whatever you need, for other similar events or on a personal or political level in Madrid. So I am willing to collaborate with you, with the educational community in general, because the educational community and especially our children deserve it.
N.C.:— Thank you very much, Óscar.
J.M.:— I would also like to thank you, not only for inviting us this afternoon, but for the work you are doing. I believe it is crucial for the educational community to also become active and, therefore, to often show us the way. I always say that no one knows the needs within the classroom better than the educational community. Therefore, I wish you continued success in your fight for this education that we defend, the best education for everyone. And because I am convinced that we will achieve it together.
N.C.:— Well, thank you all very much for being here today, especially to the four of you for agreeing to participate. Because we are also aware of the immense work you currently have on your hands, and you surely have many other very interesting things to do, but I don't know if more interesting than this (laughter). I really appreciate your participation.
I also believe that when we dialogue, we manage to transcend many boundaries that are, in reality, movable, and that you now have a very important task of moving boundaries to continue working together, because what all these families, teachers, administrators, researchers, and above all, children have been demanding is that school be worthwhile for them.
So thank you very much for all your interventions, and we are also here.
In unison:— Thank you, goodbye.
More information
Scientific productions from the Conversations
Publications
- SOLDEVILA-PÉREZ, J.; CALDERÓN-ALMENDROS, I. & ECHEITA, G. (2022). My (school) life is expendable: radicalizing the discourse against the miseries of the school system. In J. Collet, M. Naranjo & J. Soldevila (Ed), Global struggles for inclusive education: lessons from Spain (pp.17-32). Springer, Switzerland.
- CALDERÓN-ALMENDROS, I. & RASCÓN-GÓMEZ, M.T. (2022). Weaving struggles for the right to education: Collective and personal narratives for inclusion from the social model of disability. Social Pedagogy. Interuniversity Magazine, 41, 43-54.
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I. & RASCÓN GÓMEZ, M.T. (2021). Rhetorics, possibilities, and torn childhoods. On inclusive education in the LOMLOE. Cuadernos de Pedagogía, 526, 74-80.
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I.; RASCÓN GÓMEZ, M.T. & ALONSO BRIALES, M. (2020). Research to build inclusive education. In Vila, E. and Grana, I. (Coords.), Educational research and social change(pp. 189-209). Octaedro, Barcelona.
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I. & RASCÓN GÓMEZ, M.T. (Coords.)(2020). Analysis and proposals for a new Education Law. Citizens’ conversations about inclusive education. Octaedro, Barcelona.
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I.; MORENO PARRA, J. & MOJTAR MENDIETA, L. (In press). School inequality and discrimination based on ability during confinement. Family experiences in participatory research processes. Revista Complutense de Educación.
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I. & RASCÓN GÓMEZ, M.T. (Coords.)(In press). The role of the University in building inclusive education systems. Difficulties, proposals, and challenges. Octahedron.
Conference presentations at scientific congresses
- CALDERÓN ALMENDROS, I. (2021). Subverting research relationships: thinking, doing, and promoting inclusive schools through dialogue. Presentation at the 1st International Research Seminar: Building a network of networks around inclusion and interculturality. Cádiz, Spain.
- CALDERÓN-ALMENDROS, I.; RASCÓN-GÓMEZ, M.T. & CABELLO-FERNÁNDEZ-DELGADO, F. (2021). How to make our schools more inclusive? The case of Spain. Paper presented at Comparative Education Society of Asia (CESA) 12th Biennial Conference. Kathmandu, Nepal.
- CALDERÓN-ALMENDROS, I.; RASCÓN-GÓMEZ, M.T. & MOJTAR-MENDIETA, L. (2022). Intersectionality, emerging narratives, and inclusive education in Spain.Paper presented at the American Educational Research Association Annual Meeting 2022 (AERA). San Diego, USA.https://hdl.handle.net/10630/24019
- CALDERÓN-ALMENDROS, I. (2022). Involving communities in the promotion of inclusive school cultures.1st International Conference on Education and Training – Thinking education in transition times.Lisbon, Portugal.https://hdl.handle.net/10630/24019